Sas Petherick Courage & Spice
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Sas Petherick is a Master Coach OBSESSED with helping you heal your Self-doubt. As Head Coach of the Self-belief Coaching Academy, Sas teaches coaches, therapists and mentors how to support their clients using her evidence-based, trauma-informed, ICF-accredited coaching methodology. Self-belief School is a group coaching programme to help humans move from understanding the root causes of self-doubt to cultivating tangible and sustainable self-belief, self-acceptance, self-worth and self-trust.

Topics we covered:

  • Discovering and following her calling to create a self-doubt free movement
  • Building a deep-seated connection and community with podcasting
  • How a entrepreneur can efficiently kickstart and sustain a podcast

This episode is brought to you by “Podcast Accelerator Challenge“. I’ve been using podcasting as a powerful business growing tool for years. Nothing is more powerful than podcasting for help businesses grow. If you’re tired of playing roulette with your ad dollars and frustrated with algorithms constantly changing on social media platforms, the only thing that has changed about podcasting is the popularity of the platform.

If you’re a business owner and you want to grow your business but you’re not sure where to start, then join the FREE 5-Day Podcast Accelerator Challenge“. Within 5 days, you’ll go from no podcast to having a full realized podcast with built in strategies to help use this tool for your business.


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Show Notes:

  • Escaping corporate America to coach others through self-doubt (01:53)
  • Self-doubt and the psychological risks that it can stem from (07:15)
  • How podcasting evolved her blog and creativity into a brand new form (08:42)
  • How Sas uses solo episodes to anonymously spill tea from her clients and share ideas (12:17)
  • How to build a more intimate connection with your audience(13:28)
  • Why the technical aspects of a podcast are not as scary as they seem (14:50)
  • How entrepreneurs can avoid jumping the gun when it comes to their businesses (17:48)
  • Why Sas deliberately chooses not to have and paid advertising on her podcast and still gets conversions (19:00)
  • How podcasting can create a tight-knit community for your business (20:10)
  • Why podcasting is the best medium to grow your audience (20:48)
  • Systematically experimenting with podcast episodes using seasons (22:30)
  • The mindset that everyone with a podcast needs to keep in mind (26:20)
  • The most rewarding experiences podcasting has brought to her business (27:00)
  • Why podcasting is a choice that no entrepreneur would regret (29:11)
  • The impact of authenticity in podcasting (32:35)
  • The easiest way to save time in preparing to record a podcast episode (33:15)

Transcript:

Cliff Duvernois: Today’s episode is brought to you by podcast pipeline. We’ll take care of all your podcast production so you can focus on your business. Visit us at PodcastPipeline.com. 

Cliff Duvernois: Hey, they’re world changers. And welcome back to another episode of Entrepreneurs on Podcasting. Now today’s guest is a master coach obsessed with helping you heal your self doubt. As head coach of the self-belief coaching academy, today’s guest teaches coaches and therapists and mentors, how to support their clients, using her evidence based trauma informed ICF, accredited coaching methodology. In other words, she definitely knows what she’s talking about. The self-belief school is a group coaching program to help humans move from understanding the root causes of self doubt to cultivating tangible and sustainable self-belief self acceptance, self worth, and most importantly, self trust. 

Cliff Duvernois: Please welcome to the show, the founder of the self-belief school and the host of the Courage and Spice podcast, Sas Petherick. Sas, how are you? 

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: Um, so, well, nice to be here.

Cliff Duvernois: Excellent. So I know I kind of covered it a lot in your intro, but talk to us a little bit more about what business is about. 

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: So I was a management consultant for a long time, stuck in corporate cubicle nation. Um, and I burnt out really, quite badly, about 12 years ago. And my ambition for corporate stardom kind of evaporated. And I realized that I wasn’t very happy even when life was going really well. And my corporate work.

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: And so I changed careers and became a coach. And I actually ended up going back to university and completing a master’s degree in the psychology of coaching. And during that time, I just was, I had to choose a dissertation topic and I was a bit stuck. And my. Academic supervisor just said, look, you need to think about what coaching has actually taught you.

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: And a lot of it had been around understanding where my own self-doubt had come from, and the fact that for me, it plays into overall. Uh, overworking and over proving myself, which is not really seen as a kind of common trait of self-doubt. I present pretty confidently and I’m pretty comfortable in myself, but my self-doubt shows up.

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: Working really hard and very much feeling like nothing I did was quite good enough. And so she was like, that sounds brilliant. Go ahead. Do it. And I spent two years researching for my dissertation. What actually creates self doubt. Where does it come from? Why is it here and what does it even mean when you have it?

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: Is it possible to move past it? And a lot of mainstream kind of advice is very much focused on. Why not killing your way through right. Pertained to self doubt. Isn’t there. Let’s not talk about it. Let’s just crack on. And it’s all very focused on positive thinking, which actually exacerbate self-doubt.

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: So, anyone who has tried repeating a mantra or thinking a positive thought for a long time will know that actually the first thing that they experienced when they do that is the disbelief. Right? I don’t actually believe this. So for lots of us, it can exacerbate self-doubt because it just helps us to see the distance between where we are and where we want to.

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: So my work has much more focused on the whole person. And what has. Well, the very good reasons are that have lead you to doubt yourself, to question yourself, to get stuck in perfectionism and procrastination, to be in that state of proving yourself all the time. Like this is not your kind of true nature.

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: This is an adaptive strategy that you’ve developed to keep yourself safe. And so self doubt is there to say, Hey, don’t do that. You might hurt yourself. That’s why it’s always telling us to hold back. Right. And so what I have found through my work over the last decade is that when we approach self-doubt, rather than white knuckling, our way through it, but coming at it from compassion, like what created this?

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: Like the curiosity of this is here for a really good reason. So what the heck is it actually creates this really beautiful kind of. It’s almost like you develop your own curriculum for your growth and development through exploring yourself. Doubt, you get to look at what created it and kind of heal your relationship to your past.

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: Most of us have had, childhoods that had, really difficult experiences in them. Difficult relationships. And so as adults, we get to go back and heal those experiences to just bring our own kind of wisdom and perspective of just being a bit older and being able to see more of a rounded picture about what might’ve been going on.

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: As very young kids, we often take responsibility for things that we had no business can, uh, controlling well being and being responsible. So I might, so my approach is very much like look at this in the round and let’s actually see what can you knowing more about your self doubt help you to create now?

Cliff Duvernois: Yeah.

Cliff Duvernois: I completely agree with that. A lot of the problems, especially for entrepreneurs, it’s all mental, right? It’s, it’s the mindset that we have going forward. And I know that I have experienced this extensively in my life, and I know a lot of other people that have as well, and you hit the nail right on the head.

Cliff Duvernois: It’s the perfectionism that seems to stem from self doubt. Now I do want to explore this a little bit here because like I said, I’m all about mindset. So you were talking before about perfectionism coming from a place of self doubt. Where, where does that self doubt like manifest itself so much that it virtually cripples us from moving forward or taking a chance, like for instance, if somebody wanted to get into podcasting and they’re thinking, oh my God, I have to make it absolutely perfect. You know, what, where does that self-doubt come from? 

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: Uh, such a great question. So, so what I’ve found is that our, the form that our self-doubt takes is different for everyone. So for you, cliff, it might be perfectionism for me. It’s like proving myself for other people. It’s more like just passively waiting, right? Until you feel ready, or you might find that you’re always people pleasing other people to try and keep the peace.

Cliff Duvernois: That’s true. 

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: Right. So the reasons we, we do those things, the reasons that self-doubt takes that form for us is usually because we are sensitive to some kind of psychological risk, right? So it may be some risks I found there’s probably seven or eight main ones. like disappointment, where we’re prone to protect ourselves from the, from the risk of disappointment or success or failure, conflict.

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: Even things like loss and grief, shame, embarrassment, these are the kinds of things that we try to protect ourselves from. So we bring in these adaptive strategies of perfectionism as a great one. We are trying to protect yourself from what you think might happen, if you weren’t perfect.

Cliff Duvernois: love that. Absolutely love that. So gotten your school of belief going, 

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: Yeah.

Cliff Duvernois: obviously you’re very passionate about this, which is great. And if we’ve got time, I want to go back and pick your brain some more. What made you decide to get into podcasting? 

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: Sorry. I’m nearly 50 and I’ve been on the internet since it was born. So 

Cliff Duvernois: I have two. 

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: yeah, I remember having a Dora email back at university of my undergraduate. And I just, as soon as I discovered blogging way back in the early days, live journal. You know, things like that. I just thought, oh my goodness, this is freaking magic.

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: Like, are you kidding me? We get to like connect with people all over the world. So I was an old school blogger for many years. I had an anonymous blog back when it was possible. Doost which some of your listeners may know that there was a blog called deuce and the writer of that blog revealed where she was working at the time and was fired.

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: And that became a thing, right? If you, if you blogged about your employer, you could be fired. I remember those days. So for me, when I could S I could see that blogging was kind of evolving into something that had different mechanisms for us to connect with each other. So Instagram and Facebook for me, I just microblogging it’s right for small snippets of the same concept. But for, for me, and I really love exploring ideas, and I’m quite an quiet. A long read sort of a person. Um, I found that podcasting enabled me to have longer deeper conversations and also solo episodes where I would just sort of record my ideas. And people could engage with it a way that they just probably wouldn’t have time to.

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: Read it, you know, 3000 word blog posts, but listen to a 45 minute podcasts. Yeah. I can do that while I’m driving or I’m gardening or I’m out for a walk. So it feels to me like podcasting is just the next evolution of. I try to think of approaching episodes in the same way. What’s the, what is the conversation I want to have?

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: What is the intention I’m bringing to this, this episode in the same way that I would for a blog post years of yours. Um, so it’s quite fun for me to to create podcast episodes using that same intention and in lots of ways, I think the same voice, right. You’re just expressing yourself in a different way.

Cliff Duvernois: Hey everyone. We’re going to take a quick. Quick break to thank our sponsors, but you want to make sure to come back. Cause we’re going to talk about the power of solo episodes as well as the best way to grow your business by being imperfectly perfect. See you after the break. 

Cliff Duvernois: So I want to go back to something you talked about before, and that was also creating solo episodes as well. now your podcast is a combination of interviews and solo episodes, right? 

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: Yeah, that’s right.

Cliff Duvernois: Excellent. Now, where did you get the idea to do solo episodes? And how often do you sprinkle those in? 

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: I started off just doing interviews. 

Cliff Duvernois: Yeah. 

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: Um, And then I found that I wanted to share ideas that I had or shared my research findings or what I was, what, what was coming up for clients. And I wanted to do that in a way that was safe for clients. So to anonymize their stories and not have to interview people that were coming to private sessions, they didn’t never felt ethically very good to me. 

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: I started to just share some ideas. Here’s something about the fiction ism and I would just record some thoughts about it. And now my team have set it up, so we have one episode that’s just me. And one episode that as an interview and we just alternate.

Cliff Duvernois: Nice. I really do like that idea. And this is something that I, I spend some time with my clients on, is making sure that they do. Solo content, because I’ve always believed that the solo content don’t get me wrong. It’s always good to, to have the interviews right. And get the interviews and get other people’s, you know, experiences, things like that.

Cliff Duvernois: But in the solo episodes, those seem to be the episodes that your audience really learns about you. And it helps build that know like, and trust factor 

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: Absolutely. And I think it’s such an intimate, medium, right? We’re right in people’s ear holes, you know, it’s very, 

Cliff Duvernois: that. 

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: intimate. And I think there is this beautiful exchange where you can just share, look, this is what happened to me, or this is I’m thinking about about this topic. you’re absolutely right.

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: I found that it allows our audiences to. To just really get to know us and say that everybody they’re listening to is totally human and, often experiencing the same worries and doubts and fears that they are. And I think, there’s something about the energy that you bring to a conversation.

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: Even when it’s just you recording your own ideas in a solo episode, That you can just feel how that person is. You can kind of sense them to their energy a little bit. For me, it’s just a lovely way of saying, Hey, you guys, this is what I’m thinking about. What are you, what do you think? And then what I found is that there is this lovely feedback loop because people will contact me on social media and we’ll have conversations and comments or DMS about what they have found to be interesting about a particular emphasis.

Cliff Duvernois: Nice. Great. You’ve got that feedback loop in place. Let’s talk a little bit about, so when you first got into podcasting, what was one of your greatest challenges? 

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: Well, I think just knowing how it’s all set up. Right. So I didn’t realize that I was thinking, oh, well, where does it, like, where does the podcast live? Like, I didn’t realize, oh, I have to get like some kind of hosting service 

Cliff Duvernois: Gotcha. 

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: you know, like all the tech behind it. That just was kind of like, oh, I’m not sure how this is.

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: Work, but I also think, and this is my approach to anything technical is no one’s trying to bamboozle you. You’ll probably be able to figure it out. It’s just that right now, you don’t kind of know the answer and, I think just I think it was who was it? I bought like a podcasting course, like just kind of series of modules that were all about how to set up a podcast and I found that super helpful, just went, took me through everything I needed to know.

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: And did get a good mic from, and how to, how to record and how to do interviews. And it was just full of really good hands-on tips. And now there’s so many people that are doing that. You know, you can Google this, anyone who’s listening and you’ll find someone who will teach you how to set up a podcast.

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: And it’s fantastic because then. Yeah, you’re up and ready to rock. You’ve really don’t need a whole lot of equipment or, you know, the barriers for entry for there. So quite low. 

Cliff Duvernois: Yeah. 

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: it’s more, I think it’s more important that you just are excited to do it.

Cliff Duvernois: Yeah.

Cliff Duvernois: exactly. I mean, when, when you have an app like anchor, where you can just do everything right there on your phone and get a podcast set up, get up and running. Like you talk about there the technical barriers are just, really breaking down. And I see from my perspective, anyways, I see a lot more of the hosting platforms.

Cliff Duvernois: Like you were talking like Libsyn and stuff, of actually wondering that. 

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: Yeah,

Cliff Duvernois: anchor anchor did enough business where, because a lot of people didn’t want to take anchor seriously it’s so simple, but then Spotify turned around and bought them for 

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: right.

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: Right.

Cliff Duvernois: big Spotify is and they’re investing heavily in podcasting. I definitely understand that. Cause when I got into podcasting like seven, eight years ago, the technology was. I did what you did. I actually, actually, what I did, I went to YouTube. That’s what I did.

Cliff Duvernois: I went to YouTube. Yep. And I found some videos on there that actually wound up, shooting me in the foot. But that’s another video for another time. At least I understood the technology behind it and how the whole process worked like distribution of episodes. And, you know, I almost spent three grand on equipment I didn’t need and all this other stuff.

Cliff Duvernois: So Yeah. Very. Yeah. Oh Yeah.

Cliff Duvernois: Yeah. And I see that, I feel so bad. I, I I’m in some of these podcasts groups and somebody comes in there, they’re on fire. They watched a YouTube video, they spent three or $4,000 buy any equipment. After 10 episodes, they go into pod fade and then they’re trying to sell their equipment for like a third of what they paid for it.

Cliff Duvernois: And I, I feel so bad for them. I’m like, man, you didn’t have to spend all that money. I’d rather have you keep your money and spend it on other things worthwhile.

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: like, just see if you like it. I mean, I think all of us entrepreneurs are so great at going, oh, this is a great idea of doing it. And we seem to be kind of quick starts. Right. And I don’t know, I’m, I’ve sort of been at this for about 10 years, so I’m now entrepreneurship anyway. So I’m now quite good at like holding myself back just a little bit.

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: Let’s see if we like this before we, you know, buy the farm.

Cliff Duvernois: Yeah.

Cliff Duvernois: And I think that’s, I think that’s absolutely at the end of the day, that’s great advice, you know, because I think it really depends too on the why behind it. I mean, you’ve talked a lot in this episode about, you know, the intimacy that you can create you know, your listeners who could potentially become a client or a partner.

Cliff Duvernois: And I, from my standpoint, I share that same sentiment. ’cause I always look at podcasting as the ultimate relationship building tool. I’m not looking at podcasting as a way for me to get 10 million subscribers. Microsoft is not going to advertise on my podcast. I’m more focused on using it to grow my business and to 

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: Yeah. 

Cliff Duvernois: relationships.

Cliff Duvernois: So I really think that again, going back to mindset, I really think that’s a part of it is. 

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: Oh, I think you’re so right Cliff. And I think for a lot of people we look at like the massive names that are podcasting now and how much money there is to be made from it. And there’s always someone who’s going to tell you, this is the secret. And my experience and I don’t run any advertising on my podcasts for me.

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: It’s, it’s exactly, as you describe, it’s a way of introducing my work to people and just getting my name into the world and seeing if, you know, if people resonate with it, then they’ll probably stay and listen to a few more episodes. Maybe they’ll come follow me on Instagram. Maybe they might end up being a client at some point, but ultimately it’s.

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: I want, you know, my workers here, because I want people to recognize that self-doubt, doesn’t have to hold you back from your business or your career or your relationships, your creativity. I want you to see that others really good, solid approaches and tools that will support you and whether or not you choose to invest in those with me, or you just garner what you can for free off the information I provide.

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: I’m here for it all, so, and I think this is such a beautiful medium for that, as you say. And so I think you’re absolutely right for anyone listening, who is starting out, just thinking about, you know, maybe you’ll never get a massive, massive audience, but the audience you do have are going to love what you create and want.

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: They connected to you, and this is a way for you to do that in a relatively cheap way. very cost effective and low barriers to entry. So just do it. See what happens.

Cliff Duvernois: Yeah. You never know where it’s. 

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: Yeah.

Cliff Duvernois: know. So let’s talk about what does podcasting done for your business? 

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: Primarily it’s grown my audience. about, I think I started podcasting about five years ago, so I’m definitely a few years behind you. And for me it was really about, I want to have longer more more in-depth conversations with people and I think this is the medium to do it. So I was able to Invite people onto the podcast to talk about we’re our two worlds crossover.

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: And if they would share my podcast interview with them, with their audience, then I, I get access to their people as well. And some of those people will like it, then they’ll come back. So that’s how it works. It’s a very much a sort of community based approach. And I found that the more people that I’ve interviewed, the slow and steady growth I’ve been able to create.

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: And now, I mean, we’re just coming up to a hundred episodes and I’ve been doing this. I just do short seasons over a couple of seasons a year. And we’ve now had half a million downloads. So I’m like, that’s amazing to me, that is incredible. And I’m just like loving the process. It’s built into my business strategy.

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: So it’s, it’s part of our infrastructure now. And I have a team that support me to do it, which is magic.

Cliff Duvernois: Beautiful. Let’s talk about. The concept of seasons. Cause this is something I don’t think I’ve talked about with any of my other guests so far. So you talked before about how you do short, short season. So first off, why don’t you share with the audience, what a season is and then why did you decide to start implementing that as part of your podcast? 

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: I wanted to test out as the something that I can do sustainably. Do I even enjoy the process? So I thought I’m going to commit to doing 10 episodes and we’ll see if I like it. And. I was astounded by about four or five episodes. Then we were getting several thousand downloads per episode.

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: And I think that’s partly because I had a reasonably established audience already. And also I just, managed to get into views on other people’s podcasts and, people, I interviewed, she had it with the audiences. And what I found was that it was just this really I dunno, it felt really easy to do seasons.

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: I could theme them if I wanted to. So I signed my first season. It was like, I’m just going to enter introduce people to these themes that I see around self-doubt. And I interviewed a few people that I thought. Talk through the work in two different spheres that people may not be aware of.

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: And then in my second season I was like, oh, I want to do more solo episodes and see how that feels. And now we’re sort of in, season five, but we stopped doing seasons. We just call them by numbers now. And I just take big breaks over summer and over Christmas. And that creates these two seasons over the year of about 15 episodes.

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: And that just feels really doable. It doesn’t feel incredibly texting. I’m not interested in. Being my own bad boss, where I’m kind of on the treadmill of content creation, that doesn’t feel good to me. But the beautiful thing of having seasons, I found the advantage of it is that you create a little bit of desire because people want to consume your material. 

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: And if they know that a new season is coming, then it gives you the opportunity to kind of get people a bit excited about it. But also the thing that is so great about podcasts as the content has a massive shelf life 

Cliff Duvernois: Yes, it 

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: than anything else that I’ve seen. And so I will have people who find it.

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: If it’s on 64 and then say, oh my God, I’ve just binged listened to your whole podcast for the last week or so. And I’m like, wow, that’s a lot of me and your ears 

Cliff Duvernois: Hi. 

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: feel like I should send you something.

Cliff Duvernois: Well, I think that’s why you say, you said that it’s a beautifully, I me think I’m actually going to steal that massive shelf life. And I, I have mentioned this before, but I think it’s worth repeating. Yeah. I will find somebody on Instagram or Facebook that I think would be worth following. I will follow them very rarely do I go and look at their past post. 

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: Yeah.

Cliff Duvernois: rarely. It’s usually the current post. I might go back one or two, but now with a podcast, if I find a podcast that I’m listening to the host and I’m thinking, wow, I really like how this person thinks, you said, I will go back to episode one and I will live. To, to all the episodes, the bingeing, like we were talking about 

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: Yeah.

Cliff Duvernois: the power that podcasting brings as a marketing tool.

Cliff Duvernois: It’s just, all you have to do is just resonate with that one person who says, wow, I really liked this message, you know, know like, and trust that, go back from episode one, they’re hearing your solo episodes. Meanwhile, this person is becoming completely indoctrinated with your philosophy and your viewpoints and your opinions and your approaches to pre-owned problem solving.

Cliff Duvernois: Right? So your approach, for instance, for the whole self doubt, right? So they’re getting more and more exposed to this, which is going to make them a lot more likely to answer your call to action. You know, sign up for this free thing or attend our free webinar or something else like that. That’s what I have been finding with podcasts, which I just think is beautiful. 

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: Yeah.

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: it’s great. And you know, it works and it works and good and bad ways, right? Like people don’t challenge kind of lesson to folks that they are following and, take action accordingly. So I think it behooves us as. As podcasters as content creators to do our homework, right? We’re in this world of opinions count as truth.

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: So let’s not buy into that, right? Let, let’s stick to our own integrity and information that is designed to help and support people rather than tell them the answer.

Cliff Duvernois: Certainly. Yeah. I love that. Absolutely love that. What has been one of the biggest successes that you’ve had with podcast? 

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: oh, it’s definitely just the audience feedback that I’ve had. Just ice. You know, having people I once was at, um, like a farmer’s market, a few towns over, and one of the stall owners said to sort of stopped me and said, oh my goodness. I was like, yes, I am. And my husband was with me. It was grateful.

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: Say I do. I do have actually quite a, quite an important business here. Cause he’s I don’t know what you do really. But yeah, and she goes like, I’ve just been listening to your podcast and it’s really helped me with this thing that she was doing in her business. And I just thought, oh, that’s amazing.

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: Like you just never know who’s listening. And how much of an impact you might be having? Like how. What the courage to show up and share your message could be exactly what someone needs to hear that. And you just, you’re never going to know that really, unless you’re, once in a lifetime fortunate to cross paths with them in person.

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: But I found that kind of thing has happened more and more often as I’m getting speaking engagements and things like that. Not so much over the last couple of years, but you know, going to conferences and what have you and people say, oh my goodness, I love your podcast. And so excited to meet you.

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: And it’s, just fun. It’s like, oh, wow, this is so great. You’re the person that’s listening. I’m, I’m thrilled. You know? I’ve found that that level of engagement and feedback and people genuinely care about you know what you’re sharing. And think the more we as content creators are willing to like, be very human and real and to, you know, no one needs us to show up.

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: Perfect. They just want us to show up as, you know, humans, 

Cliff Duvernois: Yes. 

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: you know, the more you do that, the more they actually feel a connection. That’s quite real. So I F I found that to be just lovely.

Cliff Duvernois: Nice. Now for the audience especially the entrepreneur who has a podcast, maybe they’re struggling with using podcasting, what would be a piece of advice that you would give. 

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: Well, you know, as an entrepreneur that no one’s going to come along and tell you what to do, 

Cliff Duvernois: Exactly. Yep. Yeah. 

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: That is the beauty of this choice that we’ve all made this crazy choice to go out on our own. But I just would really like to repeat what I just said, that you just never know, like how. The courage that you have to just go, all right, SATA, I’m going to, I’m going to record the safest side.

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: I’m not sure if I’ve got it all, perfectly formed in my mind, but I’m going to share my thoughts on this aspect of my work. You just never know who might be listening, who needs to hear that? Become or a collaborator, you know, someone who shares your podcasts with their circle and that person becomes your client or your collaborator.

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: Like never even a doubt that there isn’t someone who needs to hear what you’ve got to say.

Cliff Duvernois: That’s to me, that’s just absolutely beautiful. And that actually played a part in I first started my very first podcast way back in the. I was actually in, and I was doing the interview thing and it got to a week where, there was a family crisis. I had to leave town. I came back and an episode was due to drop.

Cliff Duvernois: It was like the next day. And there was no way on the planet I was going to have an interview scheduled that short, shorter period of time. So. You know, consistency. I’m a big believer in that. So I decided, you know what, I’m going to put an episode out and I’m going to explain why I don’t have an interview ready.

Cliff Duvernois: So I proceeded to tell this story about how, for this family emergency, my sister passed away and I just spent the episode talking about her, what she meant to me, going to miss her. And I put that episode out. And the first thing is that became the most downloaded episode out of all of my podcasts.

Cliff Duvernois: I was completely shocked by that. By then I was really starting to hit burnout because as we were kind of talking about before my perfectionism was kicking in and it was taking me like a whole day do a podcast episode, which I didn’t have that bandwidth. But what was shocking is that about a week or week and a half later, my phone rang from somebody who said, Hey, I listen to your podcast. You are the guy want to work. 

Cliff Duvernois: I was completely taken aback by that. So when he and I actually met face to face to kind of like hammer out the hammer out the contract, I asked them, I said, was there something in particular about the podcasts that you really liked? He goes that solo episode where you talked about losing your sister.

Cliff Duvernois: I lost my mother last year and I was very close to her. And when I heard that episode, I knew you would understand, and that you were the guy for us. 

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: yeah.

Cliff Duvernois: Shell-shocked I didn’t talk about like my knowledge, my wisdom. I didn’t, you know, try to give advice or anything else like that. I was like, you know what?

Cliff Duvernois: I lost my sister in it hurts, you know? Because I felt, oddly enough, I felt very comfortable talking to about that on the mic for the world to hear part of me didn’t care because I was just hurting. know, what that message connected with them. So it’s like you said, you never know what you’re going to put out there; what you’re going to say, what your episode’s going to be about that’s exactly what somebody needs to hear.

Cliff Duvernois: And that’s the beautiful thing about the podcasting and speaking from the heart. You know, it’s just being able, just to just express your thoughts, your feelings, your frustrations, your successes, your failures. All of it is content.

Cliff Duvernois: All of it. 

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: I love this so much because it’s so true. Right. You show up as a human imperfectly perfect. 

Cliff Duvernois: Yes. 

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: You get this beautiful feedback. And I have found that to be true over and over and over again. People just don’t need us to show. As, you know, speaking from the mountain with out wisdom 

Cliff Duvernois: Oh 

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: how in our robes and 

Cliff Duvernois: yeah. 

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: ideas, like no one gives a shit about that.

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: Right. What they care about is can I, can I trust this guy? Like I meet him for a coffee, does he just sound like he’s got his, you know, his hat in the right place? I th I think we’re craving that as, as humans 

Cliff Duvernois: Authenticity. Yes. 

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: absolutely. Yeah. And the beautiful thing is I found, I’m not sure if this is true for you, but I found it’s way less effort energy to prepare for an episode where you are just talking from your heart and sharing an idea.

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: I found like, like I’m I like to make a few notes before I record and, you know, have a, some destination or at least a direction of travel that I’m trying to get to. But I found like if I can just show up as myself, there’s a lot less, energy and effort required to do that. So it makes the podcast experience way more human for the listener.

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: But for us as content creators, it’s less taxing. Like you’re the sustainability of it is just so much easier.

Cliff Duvernois: Yeah. I agree with that. And for my solo episodes, I do the exact same thing. I’ve got like a framework that I’ve mapped out that, that works very effectively. And literally I’ll just go through and just, it’s almost like bullet points almost like, 

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: Yeah.

Cliff Duvernois: this, you know, mention this, share this, talk about this, but that’s really about it. 

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: Yeah. 

Cliff Duvernois: I’ve got that skeletal framework put together, then I just turn on the mic and I start recording. And if I happen to hear, you know, I missed the point or something else like that, I can either record it and then go stitch it back in and post. Or I could just skip it if I’m like, you know what?

Cliff Duvernois: This just feels right. The way that it is. And then. You know, move forward and that framework has, the framework has served me really well. And a lot of the times there’ll be like, like when you’re in that moment and you’re talking and all of a sudden you remember a story or something that you could share that would help build that relate-ability with the audience.

Cliff Duvernois: Then I just I’m like, you know what? Just run with it. I know the story. I don’t need to write it. Yeah.

Cliff Duvernois: Because it’s all trapped up here, my marbles. So I just gotta, I just gotta get it out and share it with people. And I just, I love that process. And, uh, the only thing about the solo episodes I find is sometimes I can just get on a tear and just go and go and go.

Cliff Duvernois: And I’m like, nobody’s going to want him to listen to a two hour episode of me ranting and raving. Sometimes I go back and repeat my. 

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: Yeah.

Cliff Duvernois: you know, when I’m doing it, cause I’m just in free flow. So I gotta, be a little bit crafty when I go into to edit that particular episode. But, uh, yeah.

Cliff Duvernois: I do the exact same thing.

Cliff Duvernois: I’ve got a framework, you know, I’ve got the main point, like, this is what I want to talk about. This is what I want to share. And then I just kinda just kind of go from. 

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: Beautiful. Yeah.

Cliff Duvernois: Yeah.

Cliff Duvernois: it’s really nice. So Sas for, by the way, I, I get this feeling you And I could chat about this all day. I love all day.

Cliff Duvernois: I love, I love, I love, love, love mindset. I really do. I used to be the bane of my existence, but now I’ve realized that internally it’s a force for good. And now that I’m. 

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: the one thing you can control. 

Cliff Duvernois: Yes. Yeah. it is. It is. And see, now I know I wanted to go on a tear.

Cliff Duvernois: Oh my goodness. So uh, Sas for our audience, if they want to find you online, maybe they want to listen to your podcast because they’ve got more questions about, you know, mindset, mind frame. Uh self-belief self-trust uh, what would be, what would be the best way for them to find you.

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: So I am, I’m the host of the Courage and Spice podcast. It’s the podcast for humans with self doubt. I have a pretty big audience there. Um, and my website is, self-belief dot school. Uh, 

Cliff Duvernois: Perfect. 

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: that’s where you’ll find me and I’m on Instagram most days. And my Instagram handle is just my name, Sas Petherick.

Cliff Duvernois: Excellent. And for our audience, we will have all those links in the show notes down below. Sas, it’s been great having you on the podcast. I’ve really enjoyed this conversation and I’m going to officially extend you an offer to come back. Cause I would love to dive more into mindset in a, in a future episode and kind of chat with you about that.

Cliff Duvernois: So, you know, with that being 

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: just email me. We got our details now. We’re all good with 

Cliff Duvernois: awesome. 

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: get rid of me.

Cliff Duvernois: And nor would I want to, nor would I want to. I’d love and the relationships that podcast is building for me and I I’m. 

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: Yeah, 

Cliff Duvernois: Yeah, here. Yeah.

Cliff Duvernois: We’re, we’re going to be kind of keeping in contact for many moons to come to sell. That’s all the good stuff. So anyways, thanks again. 

Sas Petherick, Courage + Spice Podcast: You’re so welcome Cliff. Thank you.