Pat Helmers EOP Header Graphic

Pat is a former software engineer, inventor, tech-startup entrepreneur, business development executive. He is currently the podcast host of the top 10 Sales Babble podcast and recently launched the Cannabis Advocate podcast. Pat is the founder of Habanero Media, a podcast agency that helps B2B businesses grow revenue by integrating interview-based business podcasts into a selling process that targets qualified C-Suite executives.

Topics we covered:

  • Creating a Podcast from your existing expertise
  • Why Podcasting is the ultimate matchmaker
  • Making your podcast profitable
  • The essentials of a successful podcast

This episode is brought to you by “Podcast Accelerator Challenge“. I’ve been using podcasting as a powerful business growing tool for years. Nothing is more powerful than podcasting for help businesses grow. If you’re tired of playing roulette with your ad dollars and frustrated with algorithms constantly changing on social media platforms, the only thing that has changed about podcasting is the popularity of the platform.

If you’re a business owner and you want to grow your business but you’re not sure where to start, then join the FREE 5-Day Podcast Accelerator Challenge“. Within 5 days, you’ll go from no podcast to having a full realized podcast with built in strategies to help use this tool for your business.

Select Links from the Episode:

Show Notes:

  • How an engineer became the VP of Sales (01:07)
  • How Pat used his new Sales knowledge (02:11)
  • Podcasting and its path to once-in-a-lifetime interview opportunities (03:16)
  • Why the number of podcast downloads don’t determine its success, this does (04:01)
  • Matchmaking using podcasts (05:43)
  • How to monetize your podcast despite its number of downloads (07:57)
  • How to determine your podcast audience (11:56)
  • The initial struggles of juggling a podcast and a 9 to 5 (13:57)
  • How creative repetition can guarantee a 90% success rate for booking interviews (17:00)
  • How podcasting connected Pat with a world-renowned author (19:38)
  • The key to avoiding pod fade (23:30)
  • When you know that you need to change up your podcast style (26:37)
  • The one thing that your podcast cannot do well without: VALUE. (30:22)
  • How to transform your podcast episodes into sales calls (33:49)
  • Why podcasting is an instant proof of credibility for your business (34:17)
  • How to select a niche for your podcast (36:54)


Cliff Duvernois: Hey, they’re world-changers and welcome to Entrepreneurs on Podcasting. Now today’s guest is a former software engineer. He’s also an inventor, a tech startup entrepreneur, a business development executive.

Cliff Duvernois: He is currently the podcast host for a top 10 sales podcast, as well as he has a second podcast, which we’re going to talk about today. Now our guest is the founder of habanero media, a podcast agency that helps business B2B businesses grow revenue by integrating interview based business podcasts into the selling process that targets qualified C-suite executives.

Cliff Duvernois: Please welcome to the show, the host of the Sales Babble Podcast and the host of the Cannabis Advocate Podcast, Pat Helmers. Pat, how are you?

Pat Helmers: I’m doing great Cliff. Thank you very much for having me on here. I really appreciate it. 

Cliff Duvernois: Excellent. So it says, so normally I would just ask, you know, what is your business? It seems like you’re in a couple of different businesses here. So walk us briefly through like, what are you, what are your different businesses entail?

Pat Helmers: Well, I actually started as a podcaster in. I’ve always, I’ve always loved audio, always loved radio. I’m a bit big listener to two podcasts over time. So I started a podcast called Sales Babble, Selling Secrets for Non-Sellers. And the reason I started that was because I, as, as you had mentioned, I came from an engineering background. But I was working at a startup, a tech startup, and they needed someone to do sales the business development.

Pat Helmers: So got a self-taught myself selling. And then as we grew, we had to hire staff and next thing you know, I’m the VP of sales. So I was teaching people selling and, uh, it, it, it became a very natural thing for me. I had done, I had taught software engineering for awhile, so I had a good idea what it’s like to be in front of a classroom and kind of hold people’s interest. And great selling is really about asking questions and like, That’s and if you have what they want, if you listen, well, if you have what they want though, they’re there, they’re quick to buy.

Pat Helmers: So I thought, wouldn’t that be terrific if I had a podcast on that? So I had actually blogged some on it and but I thought this would be the next step forward. So I started a podcast and that was, oh my goodness. I think that was eight years ago. Next month. 

Cliff Duvernois: Wow. Congratulations on that. Yeah. Cause I know you’ve got a number of episodes that are out there, but I didn’t recognize that it was eight years, so that’s great.

Pat Helmers: You have been doing this a long time. And I felt like when I started podcasting, I was late to the business. 

Cliff Duvernois: not a decidedly, not, and I do have to say something here. Cause I do want to talk about your other podcast, but I do want to say something here that, one of the, one of the benefits of podcasts and, or one of the strategies to be able to follow is documenting your. And it sounds like for me with, with the sales babble podcast is that, you’re learning things and you’re sharing them.

Cliff Duvernois: And we oftentimes we learn things better when we teach it right. To be able to, for other people. With that say, w was that kind of like your approach when you started the sales babble podcast?

Pat Helmers: Yeah. I was genuinely curious about selling. I had sold tech in a B2B space business to business for a long time, but I had no idea about what it was to sell other things. I was like, I was just curious what that was about. It gave me an opportunity to meet people all over the world. Glyph. That’s been pretty cool.

Pat Helmers: I’ve interviewed. I literally have been all over the world, interviewing people am traveled the world a lot and interviewed people in person elsewhere. And that’s been 

Cliff Duvernois: Nice,

Pat Helmers: it’s, it’s been pretty it’s. 

Cliff Duvernois: nice. Absolutely love it. So let’s talk about. The cannabis advocate podcast. How, you know, why did you decide to launch that? Where did that come from?

Pat Helmers: I’ve come to, I’ve learned a lot about podcasting over time in that we’d have a tendency to want to think about podcasts is it’s not, it’s not successful and you have a lot of downloads. It’s not successful. If a lot of people are. And I’ve come to realized that that’s a bunch of baloney. It’s not so much how many people are listening to your podcast.

Pat Helmers: It’s are the Right.

Pat Helmers: people listening to your podcast. So if you don’t have a podcast, I know we’ve talked a little bit before we started talking here. So I know you’re on board with this. If you don’t have a podcast that aligns with what your business is, what your brand is. If they’re not going to feed into one another. So, so if you think about what your ideal client is, what your ideal customer is, that should be your ideal audience.

Pat Helmers: And with that realization is I’ve been very interested in the cannabis, cannabis industry, especially the business aspects of it and how it’s been exploding over the last few years. And I don’t know anything about the business. Hardly, hardly, hardly anything. You know, I’ve, I’ve, I’ve grown cannabis, I’ve got friends, I’ve gone to a couple events, but what I found with the, with the podcast, what was terrific about it was it gave me an opportunity to talk to anybody in the industry. I can interview anybody I want and people are on. Just by the way, cliff, I’m honored to be on your podcast. If 

Cliff Duvernois: I’m honored to have 

Pat Helmers: way, people are, you.

Pat Helmers: know, people are honored to be on my cannabis advocate podcast. And that’s given me an opportunity to talk to people at at the highest levels, in the business. It has been really, really interesting.

Pat Helmers: I don’t know exactly what that. This podcast goes. In fact, I just launched a survey. I started that podcast in the summer. I just launched a survey a couple of days ago on, what are your challenges in the business? Where do you think the industry’s go? And what do you want to learn? What advice and what it has created for me isn’t is it’s just constant dialogue with people so I can figure out how best to serve them.

Pat Helmers: And some of the things that I’m doing to serve them the way I’m leveraging this podcast is I’ve been doing match. Uh, so somebody has got a problem. I know somebody else who has solutions, I put them together and sometimes I get compensated for that in that, and that that’s been a fun thing to do.

Pat Helmers: That’s been an awful fun thing to do. So that’s been one way that I’ve been able to monetize that podcast. It’s a very narrow niche. Don’t have a lot of listeners. It’s fairly new unimportant. It’s not about the listeners. It’s about the guest. The guests actually become prospects. 

Cliff Duvernois: Nice. And I absolutely love that. You say that. That’s something. And I’ll be honest with you. So out of all the people that I’ve interviewed for this podcast, nobody has ever talked about the fact that, you know, so well, so everybody agrees. It’s a great relationship building tool, but I mean, you’ve got so many connections, your net.

Cliff Duvernois: Over the last eight years is just from doing the podcast, it’s just, it’s growing exponentially. You’re meeting new people all the time. You’re building relationships with them all the time. Cause that’s what podcasting does. So now to be able to use matchmaker. As you called it, which I love that term by the way, matchmaking to say, Hey, you know what?

Cliff Duvernois: You’ve got this problem. I know this person will be here. That’s got a solution and you just connect them and you know, every now and then you make money off a referral fees or affiliates, 

Pat Helmers: It’s sometimes you don’t get it. I I’m. Okay. Either way, So it’s it’s fun helping people. It’s really, really fun. 

Cliff Duvernois: Yeah, I absolutely love that. What I would like to do is, and you hinted at this before, but I want to explore this a little bit better. So what is podcasting really done for your business?

Pat Helmers: With the sales babble podcast, I’d like to talk about that if possible, 

Cliff Duvernois: Sure.

Pat Helmers: that podcast is about downloads and. Do I really didn’t know about this when I, when I, when I started all this, but I get it’s, this is not this, I don’t have a huge podcast. I probably get about, four to 5,000 downloads a month on it.

Pat Helmers: At, at his high point they had like 6,000 before the pandemic. And then, and then that kind of plummeted actually, even the pandemic started and then it’s gone back up. But what’s important about that podcast is that it’s the right list of. It’s exactly my listeners. So I have been pretty good about getting steady sponsors on there.

Pat Helmers: And for almost a year now, I just got a new one signing up, starting in March. And that’s pretty cool. And these people pay pretty well. So I’m, I’m that, that’s fun. And I’ve learned to make the podcast, do the ads in a way that. I’m happy with them and they don’t annoy the listeners. I’m pretty quick about doing the ads really quick.

Pat Helmers: Like I might start the podcast and say today, we’re gonna talk about this. We’re gonna talk about that. And then I might just start a story the other day I was reading about world war two and dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, and next thing, you know, just kind of flow into the ad and, and I set up a problem.

Pat Helmers: It’s kind of like this. It’s often like this. And then I talk about what my sponsor is. 

Pat Helmers: It’s, and there’s a, there’s a call to action. And before people even know it, the ads kind of over, but it’s really sunk into their heads and the sponsors love it. And it’s a little extra work.

Pat Helmers: Um, lately I’ve been writing a different ad every for every episode. Um, but it’s more fun to read them. They flow smoother. And the listeners don’t annoy because when I started doing sponsors, I just started reading an ad and it proved it. My listenership would drop off. I could see it, I could see it. So, and then you do a call to action at the end of the, at the end of the event.

Pat Helmers: That’s been very good. So that’s one thing. That’s what sales babble has been successful in helping. 

Cliff Duvernois: Nice. Yeah. In addition to building up your network and 

Pat Helmers: In addition to building up my network. Yep. 

Cliff Duvernois: nice, nice. And I do, I do want to kind of go back cause you’ve that’s the second time you mentioned it and I want to make sure that I point this out to your audience, having the right audience is critical, 

Pat Helmers: yes. 

Cliff Duvernois: not just, you know, am I getting downloads or.

Cliff Duvernois: How many people like my Facebook page or anything else like that, it’s gotta be that right. Audience of the people that you know, are really interacting with your brand, love your podcasts, reaching out the conversations that you’re having. Things like that, because that what that’s done for you as allowed you to open up your podcast as another income stream 

Pat Helmers: Yes. 

Cliff Duvernois: for your overall business, and that is allowing advertisers to come on and because your community is so active.

Cliff Duvernois: Right. So this means you’re not like having to say, oh, well, I’m only going to charge you like $10 an episode or something like that. You’ve got the right audience. So I think that’s absolutely critical what I’d like to do. Oh, I’m sorry. You’re gonna say something.

Pat Helmers: Yeah, 

Cliff Duvernois: Go right ahead, man. 

Pat Helmers: some other insights I I’ve had too, is it’s something I’ve been tired of actually of the sales Bible podcast. And I actually switched it all up in November. I’ve been doing practically the same podcast of interviewing experts and sales. It has actually done my brand very little. 

Cliff Duvernois: Oh, interesting. Okay.

Pat Helmers: Because they’re the pre P person being highlighted. I’m not the person being highlighted. So I am really of the notion. And I want to zero in on what you just spoke about this. That’s about really understanding who your audience is. I really am of the notion that you should, your guests should be your audience.

Pat Helmers: Your guests should be, uh, should be of the same model as your audio. So when you speak to your guests about struggles, they’ve had challenges they’ve had how they’ve overcome them. You immediately say yes, I once had somebody like that. Yes. I want to help somebody like that. Yes. That remembers, and then they’ll listen and they’re going to go, wow.

Pat Helmers: Wow. I should talk to pat because he’s doing stuff like that Right. now. He knows how to do that. They wouldn’t reach out to the guests because the guests did. It’s somebody who might actually be a peer of theirs and another business or something. So I think that’s really, really, really critical that, that these really, that these, this all lines up and that’s something I very rarely ever hear in the podcasting space.

Pat Helmers: When people talk about who is your, who’s your who, your ideal audiences, at least in this kind of this consulting kind of space that we’re at Yeah. 

Cliff Duvernois: well, I know that, and I’m glad that you pointed that out because this is one of the things when I’m, when I’m working with clients or I’m running one of my free, build a podcast for your business challenges, that’s daily. You got to have that ideal customer avatar, the ideal listener avatar, or the ideal customer audience, whatever you choose to call it, you gotta have that defined and I’m not talking about demographics, right?

Cliff Duvernois: It’s oh, I want somebody that’s, 20 to 50 and lives in the Midwest and has a business. I mean, I’m talking like, getting like very specific because you, you have to. You’ve got a member. You got to remember that your audience is going to be listening to what you’re saying. And you’ve got to produce content that is relevant to them and helps them.

Cliff Duvernois: And so that’s the whole point of, you know, having guests onto the show and talking about podcasts. And I’m glad that you brought this up because this is my next question for you. So we’re going to go back in the Wayback machine. Too. Cause he said, you’ve been doing this for eight years, which is 

Pat Helmers: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Cliff Duvernois: sure you remember it, but what was, so when you got into podcasting, what was some of the biggest struggles that you had when you first got started?

Pat Helmers: I really wanted the podcast to sound quality like Ray. 

Cliff Duvernois: oh, I hear you. I hear you.

Pat Helmers: And that took a while. That actually took me three months of fiddling with the mixer boards and getting the right microphone and being able to edit it because I, I started this as a hobby. I should be, I was, I had like a full-time job. 

Cliff Duvernois: yeah, you were an engineer. 

Pat Helmers: I, no, I was a sales manager. I was vice-president of sales. So I had people working for me and call me up all the time.

Pat Helmers: So I was getting up. 4 35 o’clock in the morning, I had worked for a couple hours the podcast and then I would to do breakfast. You’d be on the road at eight o’clock your or provides working, it was work that’s that, that took some time. I thought it was gonna be a lot of work getting guests.

Pat Helmers: It really wasn’t. Okay. Practically, you can talk to anybody and they have no more than happy to be on it, but I didn’t know that at the time, but I remember when I got my very first guest to agree to be on the podcast, I was like, woo, woo. I remember thinking that was a huge thing. It yeah. 

Cliff Duvernois: Well, I remember cause I, it, that really resonates with me. So first off, I was in the exact same. I had this idealized broadcast quality in mind and had no idea to get there. Right. So, yeah. So kind of like what you’re talking about before you, you were an audio. I wasn’t, but I knew an audio engineer and I think that actually hurt me getting started because I was spending 10 to 12 hours.

Cliff Duvernois: Just producing episodes. It would take me a few years before I finally came up with a framework that worked for me. But the second thing is like you, I got my first guest, all my, I was just beyond a static. Yeah. I was like, holy cow, somebody crazy enough to be on my podcast. 

Pat Helmers: How did you get them? How did you find that first person? 

Cliff Duvernois: so I cheated, I cheated.

Cliff Duvernois: So what it was is I was friends with this woman who was like connected to all of these people. So I went to her and I was. Can you ask some of your like, network, if there’ll be on my podcast and she’s sure. So she went off and asked them 

Pat Helmers: That’s an achiever that’s brilliance. That’s that’s glove referral selling. Right? You, you were able to do that, that good job. Good job. 

Cliff Duvernois: Thank you. I’d like the first four or five guests I had on my podcast, it was like all through her. And then finally, when I was like, okay, I’ve, I had some episodes released. I had a body work that I could actually show people. And so that’s when I finally got up the courage to start reaching out to other people that, she wasn’t connected with.

Cliff Duvernois: And, but like you said, you never know, who’s going to say yes to, to being on your podcast. So I quickly learned just like it is with sales, right. And I hate to say this, but it’s the terminology that fits, it’s a numbers game. You’re going to reach out to 20 people and say, Hey, would you like to be a guest on my pod?

Cliff Duvernois: And, 10 of them might open your email and then five or six might say yes, and you might get three or four that actually book. So, it’s this whole process you have to send out, a lot of invites to people that you think are going to be 

Pat Helmers: Yeah. It’s I tell you what if there’s there, there’s a notion that you should follow up with people seven, eight times. You can probably get, I bet you, 90 per 90% return rate. If you do, there’s a method I teach where you reach out to them, LinkedIn, then you send them an email. I need to leave him a voicemail.

Pat Helmers: Ooh. And you repeat that three, three times. There’s this whole circle. It’s I got a whole process on it, like a little, a diamond. And you could probably get practically everybody. I’ve had some people turn me. I’ve heard there’s one guy I really want to get on the podcast. He’s like, look, I get asked so many times I can’t do it. At least he responded to me and I go, dude, I get it. But you can practically almost get anybody on the podcast. If you LinkedIn connect to them on LinkedIn and send them an email. And there’s ways of fighting the emails. If you don’t know it. And then an extra calling them and leaving them a voice. And then you send them another LinkedIn message saying I’m following up on the voicemail.

Pat Helmers: Then you send an email I’m falling over in the LinkedIn message and you leave another voicemail that says I’m following up on the email. You just got to keep you spend that three times. There’ll be nine times and you’ll probably be, you probably get them on the podcast by then. 

Cliff Duvernois: okay. So first off that’s brilliant. Okay. I absolutely love that. I have been using email as far as contacting guests and I have a sequence of four. Emails that I actually use. So I send out like the first email that says, Hey, we’d like to be a guest explaining what the show is. And then over the next next four weeks I send out another three emails, just, Hey, following up, I know people get 

Pat Helmers: they may not be reading those emails cliff, 

Cliff Duvernois: Yeah. You’re absolutely 

Pat Helmers: got to catch people, different people. Our different learners in different way and prefer it’s something. The thing is that as much as people hate the telephone, these days, everybody listens to their voicemails. Everybody, you leave a voicemail, they will listen. 

Cliff Duvernois: or they’re like me and I just wait until my voicemails get transcribed 

Pat Helmers: Oh, there you go. 

Cliff Duvernois: and then I read them. So, 

Pat Helmers: actually I guess that does it on my phone. I guess apps on my phone too, I guess. Seriously, he does this, so yeah, that’s a way of getting people on the podcast. 

Cliff Duvernois: So I absolutely love it. Like I learned something new with every single interview and I’m abs I, uh, I’m loving it. So let’s talk about, for your, it could be for either podcast talk about like what is some of the biggest successes that you had, with podcast?

Cliff Duvernois: No, either BB opened up a door for you for some big relationship or.

Pat Helmers: Oh, my goodness. There’s been some. Jeez. Gosh, I don’t know. I feel terrible ass ask being so vacant within the answer here. Well, I can’t envision myself not being in the podcasting space anymore. It’s kind of in my way, the only way I know how to like, connect with. Which is silly, Right.

Pat Helmers: It’s like, oh, you Really? need to build an audience. Oh, cool. I guess I’ll, you know, the best way of doing that. And then let me get them on the podcast.

Pat Helmers: Then I can build a relationship with them. I ask them they’re invariably, at the end of the interview, I may say I just got a couple of other questions for you, but I want to ask and next thing you know, you might say something like, you guys got this challenge, they go, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Pat Helmers: And I go, oh yeah, I’ve seen that before we shouldn’t beat. So we should talk some time on the phone with it. And you convert that interview into a sales call. There’s been so many of them. I wouldn’t even know where to start. I tell you one thing. I was very, very excited. I, I was able to get Jeff Moore on my podcast.

Pat Helmers: You may not know what he, you don’t know who Geoffrey Moore. Do you know who he is? 

Cliff Duvernois: Yes I do. 

Pat Helmers: The guy who wrote Crossing the Chasm, 

Cliff Duvernois: Yep.

Pat Helmers: Terrific guy. So I’ve actually had him on twice, but at the time I was pretty new at this, at this podcasting thing. I’d read his book probably 10 years before and it completely changed how I saw technology adoption.

Pat Helmers: Uh, I didn’t really realize it at the time. It’s a marketing. It felt like a tech book when I read it and I had read It when I was an engineer and to get him on was just the highlight of my life, uh, nicest guy. And we’re always like, sure, Steve Schiffman, first guy, first, first book ever bought and sales was cold calling something or other.

Pat Helmers: And he wrote that book. So I. So, this is 15 years later after reading that book, I asked him, would you like to be on the podcast? He was like, absolutely. I thought that was a huge coup Schiffman on my podcast three times. He’s just, he’s a great, he’s a great guy. 

Cliff Duvernois: Love it.

Pat Helmers: These people are just like us. 

Cliff Duvernois: Yeah, they are. They’re, they’re human beings. Right. And I always tell people on a, I’m glad you bring this up because this is, this is something that I just, I can’t repeat enough. You know, when you talk about reaching out, your pie in the sky, right. So when you’re reaching out to these people and you’re just like, Hey, would you like to be on, on my podcast?

Cliff Duvernois: A lot of people wouldn’t even do. This guy has wrote, like Crossing the Chasm, 

Pat Helmers: Yes. 

Cliff Duvernois: This book is like, I think for a long time it was actually required reading. Right? If you were going to be an entrepreneur, you had to read this book. I remember I was consulting for a company at the time and the CEO dropped this book into my lap and said, you have one month to read this book.

Cliff Duvernois: And I was like, oh, okay. And now I understand why, because it’s, it’s a beautiful book. And for our audience, if you haven’t read it, put it on your bookshelf. And, read it, get on Amazon, read it all. But anyways, you reaching out to these people and for anybody in our audience, you have to give them the opportunity to say yes or no.

Cliff Duvernois: You just can’t assume that because you’re starting on a podcast or like, with you, for instance, talking about how you’re getting like four to 5,000 downloads, right? You just can’t assume that because you don’t have a million downloads that these big names aren’t going to come onto your podcast.

Pat Helmers: People have no idea how many downloads you have. They 

Cliff Duvernois: Yeah, exactly. Yes.

Pat Helmers: My cannabis podcast has hardly any downloads. We were doing a few hundred a month. But people don’t know that I got a nice website. They see it. They see I’ve talked to a lot of other cool people. They’re like, duh, this is cool.

Pat Helmers: This is cool. This is. 

Cliff Duvernois: Yeah. I love it. So yeah, you just eat, you have to give them the opportunity. To, to say yes, and to really, open themselves up, you look like you’re deep in thought 

Pat Helmers: Yeah, there’s another, there’s another thing I wanted to bring up and I don’t know if it was going to come if you’re going to ask me about this or not, but I think it’s important to say is that you really, you, as the host, you really have to love what you’re doing. Just stick with it. What are the metrics?

Pat Helmers: The average podcast, pod fades before 10 episodes. 

Cliff Duvernois: Yes. I, I, before, when I read it, it was 10 to 15, but people have been telling late mail it’s down to eight.

Pat Helmers: Yeah. And I, and I get that because it is a lot of work. Even if you hire somebody to produce it and do all the audio stuff, it’s a lot of work, just inter test talking to people, and, and writing up a show note. That kind of makes sense. Yeah. 

Cliff Duvernois: Right.

Pat Helmers: getting them scheduled and all of that you really have to re really enjoy the topic in order to do that.

Pat Helmers: And I think that’s that’s important. I was really hating my sales podcast. Last summer, I was sick and tired of it, and I made a decision that I was going to stop it and take a break. 

Cliff Duvernois: Okay.

Pat Helmers: And I, and I almost did. And then one of my sponsors came back and said, oh, I want to sponsor you again. And I’m like, oh, this is a lot of money.

Pat Helmers: And a lot of turn it down. So I said, okay. But I decided to take a podcast that was interview-based that mostly ran about a half an hour. And I turned into a five minute podcast that only talked about one little piece of sales that I wrote about. Based on a blog that I did on the doubt of Ching. Now this may sound weird, but I actually wrote a blog that took a Daoist view and I will, we don’t have to go into it.

Pat Helmers: Here is an Eastern philosophy view of selling. And I wrote it like eight, nine years ago, and I just started taking those little pieces and putting them in and doing them instead. And it would spend so much more fun doing the podcast. My, my, my listenership dropped. But then as I keep doing it, it’s gone back up because I’m finding a new engaged audience that likes it.

Pat Helmers: I like it. And my sponsors like it, it’s all gotta be together. It’s all got to work together in order to have that tenacity to stick with a podcast. 

Cliff Duvernois: There’s a couple of points there. First off, you recognize the value of podcasting. But at the same point in time hitting burnout, which I think probably like 90% of podcasters or entrepreneurs with podcasts hit that point.

Cliff Duvernois: I’ve hit that point more times than I can shake a stick yet. But what you decided to do was, you know, rather than invest all this time and energy and all these other things, you actually took a very interesting approach. You’re the first person I’ve talked to, that’s done this, but you switched it up and actually started creating micro podcasts.

Pat Helmers: Yes. 

Cliff Duvernois: Much easier to produce. You’re still getting your message out there. You’re still providing value to your audience, but you’re just doing it in bite sized chunks.

Pat Helmers: I was, to be honest, I was sick and tired of listening to the sales experts talk about the same thing that I’ve been hearing about forever. I mean, before they answer The question, I know what they’re going to say. I’d been doing it so long and, not to put these people. I mean, it’s not like they’re, they’re not saying wisdom and everything, but it’s just so hard to get excited about.

Pat Helmers: Oh, that’s totally right. I totally agree with you. And it’s like, it’s hard. It’s hard to do that. Now for my interview-based podcast and the cannabis podcast. I’m learning stuff. I’ve never bored listening to these guests. Unlike this is really cool. This is really cool. Producing podcasts for other people has taught me that, like I gotta, I gotta get.

Pat Helmers: I got a, a client who does who’s in the property management software business. It’s, I’ve learned a ton about something I don’t know anything about. This is actually quite interesting. Um, it’s easy to do it if you, if you’re new to it. But I do in these little micro podcasts, that’s something I’d never done before.

Pat Helmers: And it’s been really, really fun, you know, to read notes, I’ve actually writing little stories. I got quotes. I got, it’s got this little framework and they’re nice. And they’re done in five minutes. Five minutes. People like them.

Cliff Duvernois: The yeah, they do. And what I do, I have actually like a small personal podcast where I just record like my thoughts for the day. Right. That’s really what it is. Like chronically my journey as an entrepreneur, building a business, they’re all about 10 to 12 minutes. I don’t do a lot of marketing for that.

Cliff Duvernois: Like at all, for me, it’s just more like a chronic lean, like I said, and I’m sure. Yeah, it is exactly it. It’s like, I just sit down with my phone. I record an episode using the, you know, using the apple earbuds. It’s nothing professional, but I record it and post it and you know what? People find it. If they love it, you know, they’re engaged.

Cliff Duvernois: I’ve had people like actually say to me, Hey Cliff, we’re loving your story. We’re loving your journey. And by the way, thank you for keeping it under 10 mins. ’cause it’s like perfect for me to listen to on the way to work or, something else like that. And I’m completely surprised by that. But, you know, I I’m, I’m glad you’re bringing this up because what it does is, is I want to highlight the fact that you’re not under pressure to produce a 30 minute episode, a 60 minute episode, a two hour episode. As an entrepreneur, you produce the content that, appeals to your audience and you know what your audience loves, that the 10 minute or less.

Cliff Duvernois: Podcasts episodes. It’s like a quick little nugget that they can chew on and then go about their day.

Pat Helmers: So the, my wife always tells me. It’s your podcast, pat, you can do whatever you want. 

Cliff Duvernois: That sounds like brilliant advice right there. Huh?

Pat Helmers: ’cause I’ll go. Gosh, I don’t know if this is working. I’ll do this shit goes well, you can cheer podcast or you can do whatever you want. You’re not working for anybody when it comes to that podcast. I’m like, man, that’s true. I guess. Cause you’re right. Cause I’ll have to talk to me about that because I’ll have to talk to. Yeah.

Cliff Duvernois: Yeah, absolutely love it. Absolutely love it. So I want to pick your brain because you’ve been doing this for, for absolutely so long. So one of the reasons why I started this podcast is because I’m on a personal crusade to bring down. The 60 to 80% of podcasts that goes into pod fade. And what I would like to do from your perspective, cause you’ve been doing this for so long for the entrepreneur out there who has a podcast and they’re struggling right now.

Cliff Duvernois: What would be the key piece of advice or a couple pieces of advice that you would give.

Pat Helmers: Well, it depends on the kind of podcast they have. If they’re interviewing guests, make sure their guests are prospective client. Because it’ll almost, it’ll actually make there because it’s actually becomes a part of the sales call, part of the discovery part of a sales call and it’ll make them more productive because they may have had that phone call anyway, talk for 20, talk for 20 minutes about what their challenges, what their problems are inter you know, record that make it a podcast that would, that could make them more productive. 

Cliff Duvernois: Certainly.

Pat Helmers: If they’re doing a podcast, a five minute podcast,

Pat Helmers: it should make darn sure that those have five minutes really provides some value to their listeners. It’s really important that they understand who their listeners are in the best way to understand who your listeners are, is to talk to them. So if your listeners aren’t getting. 

Cliff Duvernois: it.

Pat Helmers: This is UCP. I’ve seen people do this in the podcast space, say, oh, you should do a survey monkey and find out what they care about has baloney.

Pat Helmers: You need to interview them. You need to talk to them on the phone or in person talk to a whole bunch of them and understand what they really care about. And don’t lead. Don’t lead the way. Just ask them like, these are the kinds of questions I like to ask. What’s working in your life, what’s working in your business.

Pat Helmers: What’s not working in your business. Give me three things, three things, what w what are the barriers that are stopping you from being successful? What’s stopping you from reaching your happily ever, right.

Pat Helmers: If you could transform your business, what would that look like

Pat Helmers: when you make those barriers go away? How would that transform your business? And the answers are always the same kinds of things that could be like, if I got rid of that, that means my revenue would grow. If I got rid of that, that means my profits would grow. If I got rid of that, my cost would drop.

Pat Helmers: If I got rid of that, you know, by quality would rise. If I got rid of that, my frustration would lower, you know, all those KPIs, those key performance indicators that, that we’re always looking at in, in, in running a business, you want to like really get what the audience cares about and you just give them what they want.

Cliff Duvernois: It goes right back to what we were talking about before with making sure that you identify, your ideal customer avatar, your ideal customer.

Pat Helmers: I really want to help you here. 

Cliff Duvernois: Oh, I need all the help I can get.

Pat Helmers: No, no, no, no. I, I can see, I can see, I can certainly see how you could help your audience, how you can help your listeners, 

Cliff Duvernois: Talk to me I’ll any advice? 

Pat Helmers: because if they go to pod yet, let’s like, you know, I’ve got a podcast movie, you’ve got a podcast movement?

Cliff Duvernois: No.

Pat Helmers: I’ve gotten to a half, half a dozen times. And it’s, it’s a, it’s a, it’s an events, a conference it’s usually in the summer where all podcasters all get together.

Pat Helmers: They’re all in different places. A lot of them are hobbyists. A lot of them are, they got stories. They want to tell. A lot of them want to do it for journaling like you. But there isn’t a ton, but usually when they talk about how to make money on it, it’s usually like you need to grow your audience. You need to get sponsors and how to get a sponsor and stuff like that.

Pat Helmers: It’s not this conversation of like the podcast should be just like another extension of your business.

Cliff Duvernois: Oh 

Pat Helmers: interesting.

Pat Helmers: it should just be a part of what you are part of, who you are of your brand and what you do. Like, like if your podcast talks about things, has these various problems, there are these problems and challenges you have, and you showed a little solutions in an episode, you’re doing a sales call.

Pat Helmers: You’re talking to a particular client and you go, I did an episode on that. Let me email that to you. That’s a reusable asset. 

Cliff Duvernois: Yes. it is.

Pat Helmers: Next thing you know, you got a dozen 20 of these things in your back catalog, you go, Oh.

Pat Helmers: I have another one. That’s like this. And next, and it just builds up your credibility.

Pat Helmers: That’s the thing buyers are challenged with is.

Pat Helmers: like, are you credible? Is the product that you’re promoting credible is the company that you’re working for. Credible. We briefly mentioned this at the beginning. You don’t have to be an entrepreneur to do this. If you’re just some Joe Schmo, like I’ve been most of my life working, working in the, as a cog in some big business, you can grow your own brand this way, your personal brand.

Pat Helmers: And that really, really matters. Especially in a world where we don’t stay with the same employers for a long time. People will go to look back and say, well, what’s this person doing? And you’ll, they’ll realize not only do they work here, but they’ve also got this podcast running and actually listen to it and it looks really credible and yeah, it sets you up for the next place.

Pat Helmers: The people you interviewing could be your next employer. 

Cliff Duvernois: Yeah. Oh, I didn’t even think about.

Cliff Duvernois: Yeah, cause I, cause I want to go back to what you’re talking about before, when you were talking about, going to that, the podcast conference in that podcast movement. 

Pat Helmers: which is a lot of fun. Don’t I don’t mean to put it down. It’s not very expensive. You. learn a lot, you learn a lot. It’s fun to see all the equipment. There’s a big vendor show. Yeah. It’s 

Cliff Duvernois: I bet. So one of the things I want to go back and point out is this is something where, when I’m talking to my clients is that, they, they get a podcast started and their first thing is okay, how do I get a sponsor? And. 

Pat Helmers: No. 

Cliff Duvernois: Yeah I look at them and I’m like, you just launched it.

Cliff Duvernois: We need to think about how you can use your podcast to grow your business. It’s not just, run out there and get a sponsor. And, oh, look, I just created another revenue stream. It’s you know, this is exactly why I, I want to talk to people like you, 

Pat Helmers: Um, 

Cliff Duvernois: And interview people like you because podcasting should be a it definitely a part of your marketing strategy. So it’s not like you’re going to look at it and think, oh, well, I now have 20 episodes. I’m going to go out and start charging somebody 200 bucks an episode to advertise on it. Because it’s probably not going to work. But in the other context that you were talking about building relationships, right?

Cliff Duvernois: Having that be the first step in your sales funnel to talk to people, this is where the power of podcasting really comes into play.

Pat Helmers: That should be step one. 

Cliff Duvernois: Yes.

Pat Helmers: It’s w w w w what was, PatFlynn say the Riches are in the Niches or something like that. Right, 

Cliff Duvernois: Yeah. Everybody says that. 

Pat Helmers: right, right. There’s this, um, you’re not going to be Joe Rogan. 

Cliff Duvernois: No, you’re not.

Pat Helmers: You want to pick a very narrow niche that you’re the expert on. And you’re the only one that can probably do that. Because you’ve cornered the market on you and your personality. There’s only one of you in the world. 

Cliff Duvernois: Well, something to keep in mind. And I’m glad you brought it up about Joe Rogan. Cause the same thing applies with Joe Rogan with Tim Ferris is that, these people already had built in audiences, right? The Tim Ferriss show number one rated podcast on apple iTunes, like a gazillion.

Cliff Duvernois: But he had, he written the four hour work week. He had built in a community, loyal, listenership. He had you know, tons of testimonials from people that were actually doing it. So when he launched his podcast, he had a built-in audience already, and he already knew like you were talking about there.

Cliff Duvernois: He already knew what they liked and what they wanted. So that’s why for him, he could go out and spend two hours doing a podcast episode and really going through. With his guests. I don’t have that bandwidth. And the second thing is I don’t have that built in audience. So when you have that built an audience, it’s very easy for you to go out and seek, sponsorship.

Cliff Duvernois: For podcasts and be able to command money and there’s a whole economics model behind it. And I don’t want to really spend the time getting into it. But for 99.9, 9% of people that are out there, you’re not going to have that built in audience of millions of people to start listening to your podcast. It’s going to stay, it’s going to take work to get it, to get that traction, to be able to, if you decide one day, oh, I do want to get a sponsor for this.

Cliff Duvernois: So in the meantime, While you’re working on building up that listenership, how can you use your podcast to help grow your business? What are those other tools like you were talking about instantly? Yes. And that’s the beautiful thing about a podcast. And you mentioned this before, nobody knows your download numbers.

Cliff Duvernois: So this will gives you the perfect opportunity to be able to reach out to people to say, Hey, I’ve got a podcast. I would love to interview you for my show and give them the opportunity to say yes or no. Like you said, it’s a very first step in building that relation.

Pat Helmers: Yeah. 

Cliff Duvernois: Absolutely love it. So for our audience out there who is listening to this, and they’re like, I want to check this guy out. I want to listen to a micro podcast. You know, I want to learn more about cannabis as well. What’s some of the best ways for them to get in contact.

Pat Helmers: All these podcasts are on all of the pod catchers out there, Stitcher, Spotify. ITunes Google play. So if you look for sales babble at like sales,, you can listen to my sales podcast. And like I said, I’m getting ready to do these little micro. Uh, these are like these little five, six minute ones.

Pat Helmers: Although I got a buddy of mine really wants to be on it. So I’m going to break a rule and let him on. And you can also hear how I’m doing my little, how I do my little ads on. I take, I go all Malcolm Gladwell on it, and try to make them very, very reasonable. And then my other podcast is the cannabis advocate podcast.

Pat Helmers: And it’s, uh, that podcasts advocates for people in the cannabis industry, which is growing leaps and bounds, super duper interesting, very interesting industry. It’s different from anything else. It’s, it’s kind of the same and it’s. Yeah. If it does nothing about a fields elicit or anything, even though it’s illegal, at least the first federal laws go you go to the conferences, it feels like just any other in any other to show social equipment, they’re selling services, they’re selling banking. They’re selling. Yeah. Yeah. And I produce podcasts for companies too.

Pat Helmers: Habanero Media that. Is that is the website for that. 

Cliff Duvernois: Nice.

Pat Helmers: and I think, yeah, I think I gave you the, so you can put those in your show notes. 

Cliff Duvernois: That’s exactly what I was going to say for audience. So anyways, pat, it’s been awesome and a lot of fun having you on the show today. And. Thank you for your wisdom. And I would love to circle back with you in the future when you’ve really had a chance to get those micro podcasts out there and see what that impact is because, and I’m glad that you brought it up because, like I said before, podcasts did not have to be half an hour, hour or two hours.

Cliff Duvernois: If, if all you have is five minutes, take five minutes of all you have is 10, take 10. The important thing is to get your message out there and start getting in front of.

Pat Helmers: Absolutely. I didn’t say this, but one other thing is these little ones, one of the reasons I did it was eventually I want to stitch them together in a book. It forces me to write that book that I’ve been putting off for years. 

Cliff Duvernois: ah, see, now we can talk about that for another half an hour. I’m a big, I’m a big believer in this man. Do you want to write a book? Do a podcast, you know, every, yeah. Every chapter, every page of your book, whatever it is, could be an episode of your podcast. Get it all transcribed and hire an editor to stitch it together.

Cliff Duvernois: Yeah, I can, man. I can talk about that all day long. So, 

Pat Helmers: I’m sorry about this cliff. I can, I could go on and on about this topic. 

Cliff Duvernois: what about writing?

Pat Helmers: No about podcasting, because if we start talking about writing?

Pat Helmers: a book for like three or four minutes, something else will hit me and then we’ll never get off this episode. So 

Cliff Duvernois: So that just means I got to have you back. See, there you go. You’ve committed. You’ve heard it. Ladies and gentlemen, he has committed to coming back. So Pat going to hold you to that. So anyways, thanks for taking time to chat with us today, pat. Really appreciate it. 

Pat Helmers: It’s been an honor.