Jenn Donovan is a property law specialist, turned retailer, turned social media and marketing speaker, changemaker momentum creator, as well as a mentor and coach for small businesses, she has done it all.

She’s learned lessons from the school of hard knocks, running her own business for 15 years, and she has spent the last five years teaching what she has learned. This self-proclaimed marketing nerd is passionate about social media. And if she says, if you can get your marketing right online and offline, Then you can build the business of your dreams.

And I agree with that. She started the popular “Small business made Simple” podcast and with almost 200 episodes, she’s definitely an expert in using a podcast to help grow your business.

Topics we covered:

  • The Importance of Marketing in Any Business
  • The Silver Lining of a Failed Partnership
  • Overcoming Imposter Syndrome
  • Why Podcasting is a Gold Mine

This episode is brought to you by “Start My Business Podcast Challenge“. I’ve been using podcasting as a powerful business growing tool for years. Nothing is more powerful than podcasting for help businesses grow. If you’re tired of playing roulette with your ad dollars and frustrated with algorithms constantly changing on social media platforms, the only thing that has changed about podcasting is the popularity of the platform.

If you’re a business owner and you want to grow your business but you’re not sure where to start, then join the FREE 5-Day Start My Business Podcast Challenge. Within 5 days, you’ll go from no podcast to having a full realized podcast with built in strategies to help use this tool for your business.

Select Links from the Episode:

Show Notes:

  • What business owners NEED to make a priority (01:27)
  • How Jenn helps clients move through their marketing journey (01:59)
  • What impact did the pandemic have on her business (02:11)
  • What’s keeping businesses from growing their full potential (03:09)
  • How Jenn found a silver lining from a failed partnership (03:30)
  • How Jenn made a bigger impact by podcasting (03:50)
  • Why Jenn almost gave up podcasting (04:20)
  • How Jenn took the reins on her vision (05:27)
  • Why defeating imposter syndrome is the key to content production (8:50)
  • High demand– low supply of episodes (09:13)
  • How Jenn maximized Linkedin to scout for guests (09:30)
  • An unexpected flash of inspiration for content (09:48) 
  • If you’re not doing this with your podcast yet…you’re missing out (10:28)
  • Why Facebook groups are a gold mine of clients (11:53)
  • How to sell your product without making a sales pitch using podcasts (12:24)
  • What it’s like to have people binge your podcast like Netflix shows (14:15)
  • What the biggest thing was that has brought Jenn business (15:42)
  • How Jenn brings even more value to her audience (16:32)
  • Why it’s okay not to please everyone (17:48)
  • Why relatability can actually make you stand out (19:18) 
  • Jenn’s secret to overcoming imposter syndrome (20:14) 
  • What you need to tell yourself when you feel like quitting (21:49)
  • Good things come in threes (23:25)
  • How Jenn mixed business with passion (24:40)
  • Hitting two birds with one stone using podcasts (26:02)
  • Why podcasting brings about priceless privileges (26:52)
  • How Jenn has saved thousands upon thousands of dollars from her podcast (27:09)
  • How podcasting fast-tracked her way speaking engagements (28:20)
  • What her biggest success from podcasting is (28:43)
  • Instead of getting engrossed on your number of downloads…do this instead (29:40)
  • How podcasting has made Jenn feel like a celebrity (31:41)
  • If you have a compelling reason, why podcasting is your obligation (32:30)
  • How to repurpose your planning into content (33:15)


Cliff Duvernois: Hey, they’re world changers. Welcome to entrepreneurs on podcasting. Today’s guest is a property law specialist, turned retailer, turned, social media and marketing speaker, changemaker momentum creator, as well as a mentor and coach for small businesses, she has done it all.

She’s learned a lessons from the school of hard knocks, running her own business for 15 years, and she has spent the last five years teaching what she has learned. This self-proclaimed marketing nerd is passionate about social media. And if she says, if you can get your marketing right online and offline, Then you can build the business of your dreams.

And I agree with that. She started the popular “Small business made Simple” podcast and with almost 200 episodes, she’s definitely an expert in using a podcast to help grow your business. Ladies and gentlemen, please help me in welcoming to the show. Jen Donovan. Jen, how are you?

Jenn Donovan, Small Business Made Simple Podcast: I’m fantastic. How are you going? 

Cliff Duvernois: Oh man. I’m I’m doing well. I’m buried under a couple feet of snow here in Michigan. I’m sure it’s all nice and sunny down there in Australia. Uh, but yeah. So other than that, doing really good.

Jenn Donovan, Small Business Made Simple Podcast: that’s fantastic. Yes, it is very hot here in Australia, in the middle of our summer. So very different to what you’re experiencing. 

Cliff Duvernois: Oh, I bet. So I know I talked a little bit about your business in the intro, but why don’t you tell us, what your businesses, what is it because I use exactly do.

Jenn Donovan, Small Business Made Simple Podcast: So my business is all around social media and marketing with small businesses. My one goal, my one dream, I guess, through my whole business is for business owners to make marketing a priority. Yeah. So many people make it a sometimes activity or when I get time activity. But the truth of the matter is if you want a successful business, you have to make marketing a priority and spend time working on your business, just not in your business.

So that’s pretty much my goal in everything I do. I try and focus towards that goal. Hence the podcast, leaving tips and tricks and helping people sort of move along that journey of their own small business and a lot of speaking and running workshops. And of course, I used to get out and about a lot.

We had a lot of kilometers on my car, but now, uh, of course the pandemic made everything go online. So doing lots of webinars and workshops online, again, focused on that one goal, helping people, helping people make marketing a priority and, Um,

just helping. Get unstuck from whatever’s making them stuck whether it’s accountability or whether it’s not knowing what to post or when to post or how to post or email marketing all just rolled into one.

But with that one goal in mind, 

Cliff Duvernois: I’m glad that you pointed that out because you can have the best product. You can have the best service, but unless you’re getting it out in front of people, especially your ideal customer, avatar your business, isn’t going to go anywhere fast.

Jenn Donovan, Small Business Made Simple Podcast: no, no, it’s just not like, you know, you, you need customers, you need customers, come back again. Uh, you need loyalty and referrals, but you’ll say need that a new customer base. And unless they know who you are and what you can do for them, unfortunately, the business just can’t grow to its potential. 

Cliff Duvernois: Yeah, exactly. I really want to explore this. What made you decide to start a podcast in the first place?

Jenn Donovan, Small Business Made Simple Podcast: I guess it was, uh, it came about in circumstances. So prior to running my own business, I was in a partnership business with another gentleman. We did marketing and social media together. That partnership kind of took a bit of a downturn very, very quickly. And I found myself thinking. Gosh, there’s one of me for every corner of every street in Australia.

 There’s a marketer, there’s a coach, there’s a mentor. So many of us, how can I stand out from the crowd? And, um, my podcast is going into its fourth year. So four years ago, not everyone had a podcast. That was my one thing that I thought that’s how I can stand out from the crowd is by having a podcast and putting my voice out there and putting my knowledge out there and also very strategically how I can grow my network by having amazing people to interview and getting them to know me and me getting to know them as I go along as well.

But I have to say when I started four years ago, I honestly thought I had about 27 episodes mapped out of what I thought I knew and interviews people that I could interview in my world. So I actually thought I’d struggled to get past about episode 26.

Cliff Duvernois: I really want to go back. Cause you, you made a couple, really, really profound points there that I want to go back and hit on. First off, you actually treated, having a podcast as a point of differentiation for your marketing business. How did you, how did you ever have that thought?

Jenn Donovan, Small Business Made Simple Podcast: I guess, when you work in coaching and in marketing, you can see how saturated it is. So I guess that’s one of the philosophies, like, when I was in retail, I always had a business coach and I guess maybe that was something that he drummed into me was, how do you stand out from the crowd?

So I guess I took those lessons and, and also I. I had inklings that I wanted to have a podcast, even when I was in my previous business partnership. But unfortunately my business partner wanted to do it as well. So, I, he never got around to doing it, but I was studying waiting for him to take the lead and do it.

So when, of course that partnership ended, I was like, right now, it’s my time to do it. And so I just went and learn how to do it. And by learn, I mean, I watch YouTube videos on how to do it. 

Cliff Duvernois: Yup. No I’d been there. And, and so way back in the day, this was like many moons ago. When I was living in California, I was a real estate agent and that was one of the things cause they always tell you, you know, you got to find a way to stand out, find a way to stand out. And my business coach said, start a podcast.

So, I didn’t know what I was doing. And I was like, you know, just like you, I went to YouTube. I think I learned like every wrong way to do a podcast episode. Cause it was, it was taking me 10 to 12 hours a week to do a podcast episode. Fortunately, I’m down to an hour now, but it was taking me like forever to be able to do that.

And, but here’s the deal. Nobody else, not a single, like real estate person in my area was doing a podcast, not a one. 

Jenn Donovan, Small Business Made Simple Podcast: Hmm. So interesting. 

Cliff Duvernois: yeah. And what I did is like, I quickly realized that this was a big differentiator. And so whenever I was doing any kind of like an open house or whatever it is, you know, rather than push, Hey, I can help you buy or sell her home.

I pushed the podcast always cause people always wanted to talk about your podcast is it’s almost like when you say I have a podcast also, in my experience, it is, it elevates the conversation, right? You’re it’s not like you’re, you’re standing there talking to somebody in there. They’re like, oh, you’re just another real estate agent.

When you, when you say I have a podcast, all of a sudden people like, really like, like you’re doing something like really special or something. They’re like, well, what are you talking about? Well, , how can I find your podcast? And so, what I would do is I, I got to a point where I’d go to a, like a party or something, and I wouldn’t even tell people I was in real estate.

I would just tell them I hosted a podcast and they’d be like, I want to listen to it. Cause I talked to all people local in that area. So I got the, uh, the MailChimp, I had that app on my phone and I would say, yeah, just put your email in here and I’ll send you a link when, when new episodes drop and that’s all, a lot of people found out I was in real estate and I tell you what, when I switched from.

Yeah. Trying to collect emails at open houses versus, trying to get people to subscribe to my podcast. I mean, it was just night and day difference. Right? Cause all they wanted to do was grow my email list and let people know, Hey, this is how I actually pay the bills. Right. So for, for you to be able to say that, I’m glad that you said that.

Cause for a lot of people having a podcast is a big point of differentiation.

Jenn Donovan, Small Business Made Simple Podcast: yes, it is most certainly 

Cliff Duvernois: now with, with regards to podcasting and you jumping into it, you, you said that you made it to 27 episodes. I want to explore this a little bit because another thing that, that I hear from entrepreneurs is a struggle to come up with content. Like what are, what are ideas that I can talk about? So you said you had it mapped out for 27 episodes.

Clearly you’ve produced more than 27 episodes, so, 

Jenn Donovan, Small Business Made Simple Podcast: think I have, I think at the time of recording news, I think 1 76 is what was released last week. Yeah. 

Cliff Duvernois: So, when you made it, you were getting close to that 27 point. What did you decide to do as far as coming up with more content to, uh, going forward?

Jenn Donovan, Small Business Made Simple Podcast: I guess, um, gosh, it is a little while ago, but I think I just didn’t run out of things to say. I just, I guess when I initially thought, you know, and I guess some of it is imposter syndrome, like, oh, you know, what am I an expert on that I could possibly talk about? Or these are probably the things that I could I feel comfortable talking about, but the more I got into it, the more people listened, the more people complimented me.

The more people said, oh my gosh, that was so good. I needed to hear that. The longer the episodes extended out as in number wise, not time-wise. And then of course I thought to myself, well, who don’t. I know that my audience would love to hear from because they can help my audience as well.

So that’s when I took to LinkedIn and started to connect with people. And I can tell you, if you send someone, a message that says, would you like to be on my podcast? Rarely do you get to no. Most people jump on the thought of getting onto someone’s podcast. And so, you know, people said, yes.

So again, I extended my network and it just kept rolling from there. Sometimes I would listen to other people’s podcasts. Even in my own markets, in marketing and social media, and they would say something and it was like, oh, there’s a whole episode on that. I could do a whole episode on that particular topic.

But it might’ve been just a sentence in their podcast, but it’s just like, oh yes, my audience would love to know that as well. So I guess that’s how the ideas keep coming. Um, surprisingly, three years in, I had these little. epiphany I think must been, July or August last year where, I’ve always recycling my podcasts into social content.

And I was sitting there watching, my Instagram one day and I thought to myself, well, why aren’t you repurposing your social content into podcasts? And it was just like, how dumb are you not to have thought of this before? So that’s where I started to do. My little soundbites that I’d been putting on Instagram or LinkedIn or something that might’ve been a tip or a trick for a Tuesday.

I then did a short, sharp podcast interview about, so again, four or five minutes, which then meant I went through a series of time there where I was putting out two a week, rather than just one a week. But I think once you’re in the game of creating content, you find content, it comes to you and you’ve just got to be willing to listen to it.

Cause it might be a word. It might be a sentence. It might be something someone says to you, It might be an epiphany. 

Cliff Duvernois: Well, I, I think you, you really bring up a good point and this was something that I, I will admit I hadn’t even considered before, but this is great. If you’re putting out like little snippets, like an Instagram Reel, or, a little video on Tik TOK or whatever it is like that, and you could almost like reverse engineer content for your podcast.

Right. You could go out there and just put a bunch of stuff out there and track it for like, let’s say like a week or two, what are the top trending topics that people really zoned in on and then go back and create a podcast episode around it. I love that idea.

Jenn Donovan, Small Business Made Simple Podcast: Yeah. Yeah. And once you start looking for these things, they become really quite obvious. I find Facebook groups fascinating. I hang out in a lot of Facebook groups and you know, you, he, you see questions continually. And especially if you’re hanging out in Facebook groups where your ideal client is.

I’ve had, I’ve seen someone asked that question two times this month. If they’re asking it, other people must want to know the answer as well. So you can create again, create a podcast episode around it. And you were saying before about, in being in real estate and pointing people to your podcasts.

I find my podcasts awesome for that as well. If you’re in Facebook groups and they’re asking for advice, rather than going in with a buy my product or sell, you know, here’s my sell to you. You’d like, look, I’ve got a podcast episode, here’s the link. , go and have a listen and see if that helps you and bang.

You’ve got a new listener, plus all the other people who are reading the comments. 

Cliff Duvernois: Yeah. And, you know, that’s a very powerful, marketing tip. And, and I know that I’ve, I’ve shared this, when I’ve done my challenges before. What you said was really good. Going in and belonging to those Facebook groups that your ideal customer avatar belongs to that. They’re asking question. And like you said, probably about 80% of the responses to that person’s question are going to be, are going to be, either by my thing or DM me or something else like that. You go in there and you add value.

Whether it’s, whether you write something out or include a link to your podcast episode, where you sit there and say, Hey, this is what dah, dah, dah. And you will not only get that person, but like you said, you’ll probably get 10 or 15 other people that have that same question and they want to hear the answer too.

And they’re going to click on the link and come over to your site. So that right there is, it might. And granted it’s not, it’s not, you know, 10,000 downloads. It might only be 15, but still, if it’s the right 15 and they hit that subscribe button, or they come to your site and fill out your form, I want to do this, or maybe they want to download your lead magnet, your freebie, whatever that might be, or sign up for your webinar or whatever it is, then that’s when you start hitting pay dirt.

Jenn Donovan, Small Business Made Simple Podcast: Yeah. that’s right. That’s right. And of course you come off as a person giving value rather than being salesy. And then if your podcast is any good and they get to know your personality and you not just listened to one, but Listen to you almost become addicted to your, to your podcasts. I know I get a lot of people reach out to me that, might have been directed to go and listen to one episode.

And they’re like, oh my God, I’ve started from the start, you know? And I’m like, oh my goodness. I wouldn’t even listen to the first episode of my podcast. Like, oh my good days, it would just, I remember cutting at every breath and I’m an hour. And, and now, I’m a bit more like this and just, rarely edit unless I make some sort of really bad mistake or, have a child come in or a husband coming in or something when they shouldn’t.

But, uh, yeah, you know, you can get a lifetime listener out of just that one value adding comment.

Cliff Duvernois: Yeah. And I would love, love, love to, explore some more of the, the perfectionism. Right. Cause I think perfectionism kills so many podcasts out there and, I will admit, I fell victim to that cause I was just like you editing out every single arm, like all those fillers. Yeah. And, that right there alone is, is what was taking my podcasting from, something simple and fun to this 12 hour time suck every single week where, I wasn’t doing those activities.

I should have been to help grow my business. I was too busy editing a 30 minute episode of my podcast. So I would love to, I’d love to explore that with you a little bit more. What I would like to talk about is, uh, so you’re producing episodes. You’re getting episodes out there. You’re finding all kinds of great content.

What is podcasting really done for your business?

Jenn Donovan, Small Business Made Simple Podcast: I would say probably the biggest thing that has done is sit me up as the expert. So the expert, if someone’s thinking marketing, social media. I need someone to come and speak to my membership, my audience, my local council group, my local chamber, whatever that is. Then I have a really good foot in the door already because I not only know what I’m talking about, which they can simply hear from my podcast, but they can tell my personality a little bit.

They can’t see me, but they can tell my personality from listening to my podcast. So they already know whether or not I’m a good fit for their audience or not that I’m going to bring value to their audience or not. So if. So to setting myself up there as the expert is definitely one of the biggest things that it’s brought to my business, but I think it’s taught me a lot as well.

And it’s probably given me a lot more confidence that I do know what I’m talking about when it comes to marketing and social media, and also be willing to, learn more myself, being that lifelong learner. And always like I put out an episode earlier this year about NFT and social coin and I, you know, Bitcoin, I know really nothing about that, but it was so fascinating to me.

I had to bring my audience’s attention to it. Just basically saying, this is this, you guys need to keep your finger on the pulse here because web 3.0, it’s coming and it’s going to be, new to business and it’s going to change the way you do business. Don’t follow me. I don’t know anything about it, but you know, this is what my opinion is.

So it just elevates you and brings new knowledge to your audience. 

Cliff Duvernois: Yeah. And what we were talking about before, when, you say to somebody, I have a podcast that just changes the whole conversation right there.

Jenn Donovan, Small Business Made Simple Podcast: It does. Cause people think that it’s an amazing thing to have a podcast. And I guess perhaps it is amazing, but as you, and I know, like it starts off as such a big job and I’m with you. I think it used to take me half a day to put out a half hour episode. But you get quicker at it because you learn tips and tricks as you go along.

But B you care less. I wanted a podcast in the end where if you met me in the supermarket, I’d sound the same as if you listen to my podcast. So there are likes and ums and AHS and whoops, the daisies and, things like that, so that it feels more genuine to me. Some people won’t listen to it for that reason that it’s not completely polished and that’s okay.

They’re probably not my people at the end of the day. 

Cliff Duvernois: I think the big thing to keep in mind too, is that, when you’re putting out a podcast episode, it needs to have that authenticity to it. Right? It’s it’s, this is who I am. And I’m glad that you said that because you’re talking about how the person behind the mic is the same person that you’d bump into at the grocery store.

And I think a lot of people, and I know that I certainly fell victim to this. I was taking a look at, like these big interviews, Larry King or, uh, Tim Ferris or these types of people. They’re thinking I had to be. That person. Right. When I was putting together my podcast, I had to be like that good.

Or nobody’s going to listen to me. And one of the things that I realized, almost too late in the game was that people were tuning in because they wanted to learn more about Cliff. 

Jenn Donovan, Small Business Made Simple Podcast: Yeah. 

Cliff Duvernois: You know, not about, not about Larry King, not about Tim Ferris, but they wanted to learn more about Cliff. And so I’m really glad that you brought up that whole point because , the authenticity thing, it’s just something that I think everybody in every platform, and podcasting being a big one, uh, really needs to keep in mind.

Jenn Donovan, Small Business Made Simple Podcast: Yeah. And I think that, I hats off to all those business people that have enormous podcasts with enormous downloads, but I think. Sometimes to a listener, that’s an unachievable thing. Whereas to listen to little Jenny Donovan who lives on a farm in a rural place in New South Wales, it just happens to be good at marketing and social media.

It seems more relatable. It seems like that person is more like the listener than the person who is famous already. So I think you also have that degree of, you know, that relate-ability, that they can sort of go she’s she’s just like me. She just knows a little bit more than what I do. I should listen to her. 

Cliff Duvernois: Yes, exactly. I love exactly how you phrased that. When you started off with a podcasting. What did you find was your biggest struggle when you got into podcasting and how did you overcome it?

Jenn Donovan, Small Business Made Simple Podcast: I think my biggest struggle was probably imposter syndrome. And I know that that might seem like a bit of a cop-out answer. To my friends, to my family, to my ex clients that I had, when I worked in my other marketing business, I felt like they’d be thinking who is she to be putting out a podcast?

It’s like, she’s just Jenn Donovan. Like why is she feel that she can put out a podcast? and so I really felt that weight of who am I to be doing this. The stronger emotion was I need to stand out from the crowd. 

That won over imposter syndrome in the end. But it was definitely something that I had to overcome And and sometimes it still creeps in.

 I look at my download numbers and I, think to myself, no, no people are listening in, people are listening. So it’s still working.

Cliff Duvernois: I love that too. Imposter syndrome. That happens so much, when people are out there and I think this plays into, believe it or not, it’s a topic that you talked about earlier, which is, when we were discussing this about how you could have the best product service out there, but unless people know that you’re out there and you can get your products and services in front of them, then you know, your business just isn’t going to grow.

And I think with imposter syndrome, that’s one of the things is, you’ve built a product, you’ve put it out there, but all sudden you’re just like all of a sudden, like, who am I? Right. All my competitors are out there. Other people are doing this, they got bigger names, they’ve got bigger budget.

Who’s going to pay attention to me. But I loved your answer there. Right? You needed to stand out. Right. You needed to do something different.

Jenn Donovan, Small Business Made Simple Podcast: One of my friends has a brilliant quote and I think of it often, and I quote it often and it is, I am more stubborn than I am scared. It’s like I was too stubborn not to have a podcast, even though I was scared. So that’s one of my favorite sayings when imposter syndrome enters my head is I am more stubborn than I am scared.

I’m going to do this. 

Cliff Duvernois: nice. I gotta write that down. Cause I’ve never heard that before, that is, sometimes you you’ll have those one people that, they have to read every single book out there and watch every video before they take action.

And then you’ve got the other people that jump in. With both feet and, I know that, launching anything new, especially when you don’t see a lot of people around you doing it, you just have that tendency to think, well, why aren’t they doing 

Jenn Donovan, Small Business Made Simple Podcast: Mm. 

Cliff Duvernois: know? And, somebody else could be doing this much better than me or whatever it is. And, and I think what it is, is, in those particular cases there, when you talk about being, absolutely stubborn is this is something thats gotta get cemented in every entrepreneur’s mind, but you do have to look at how you can really differentiate yourself in the marketplace.

So I’m really glad that, I’m more stubborn than scared that you, that you shared that nugget with us.

Jenn Donovan, Small Business Made Simple Podcast: Use it, use it to your delight, write it down, pin it at the top of your computer. So whenever imposter syndrome comes to visit, you know what to tell them? 

Cliff Duvernois: Yes, definitely. And not only did you get over your imposter syndrome to launch your small business made simple podcast, but you’ve got two other podcasts out there.

Jenn Donovan, Small Business Made Simple Podcast: I know it’s a little bit crazy, isn’t it? Like my mom always told me I would like to talk and apparently she was correct. So I, I do have two other podcasts if I have another business, which is an online marketplace. So it’s like Amazon, but it’s only for rural and regional Australian, small businesses. So, that has a podcast attached to it, called Stories from the Bush.

And that is all about interviewing people who belong to that marketplace about, what it’s like to, work and live in the Australian rural landscape. And my other one is called Along the Murray. So I live on the Murray river in Australia and it was basically released late last year as.

Uh, a bit of a tourism bring in gem. So I interviewed local people who had a tourism based businesses, because in Australia, of course, I’m not sure whether you follow the news, but I think we’re only just opening up to international travel sometime this week, or sorry, this month. So, it’s been very much about domestic travel in our summer here and our spring here.

So I wanted to do a podcast that would attract more visitors to our particular part of the beautiful country that I live in. So that was a bit of a passion project, but I have to tell you that it kind of had a different.

Business angle to it. As in, I wasn’t getting a lot of work from one of my local shires, so I live on a border.

So I have two different shires, I guess. And one particular Shire was wasn’t really answering my emails. It wasn’t really, getting me in front of their community, which of course as a speaker I wanted to do. So I interviewed a few of the, real stakeholders within the local council, on my podcast as kind of like a get to know me on a different level and believe it or not, it actually works.

And now I have some, paid speaking gigs coming up in that particular council. So it was kind of my passion project, but it also was about, people in the area getting to know me on a different level, so that when I did want to put a proposal to them that maybe they’re a little bit more likely to say yes.

Which of course has paid off. 

Cliff Duvernois: Yeah, definitely. I could definitely see that in there if you’re going to reach out to somebody. Cause I know that’s another area that a lot of people are really wanting to get into and that is speaking engagements. So having that podcast to be able to showcase, Hey, this is what I can talk about. This is what I’m an expert in.

This is what I sound like. If this is a good match for your audience, let you know. And almost like you’re, you’re getting a chance to audition without really auditioning.

Jenn Donovan, Small Business Made Simple Podcast: Yeah, exactly. , to do a podcast like I did for Along, the Murray, if they were paid, , a professional agency or someone to come in and do that podcast, it would have cost them around $10,000. So I almost gave them a $10,000 gift, which was twofold, one fold for me because I wanted some work from them in the future.

I wanted them to at least open and acknowledge my emails in the future. And two, I wanted to help other small businesses with the tourism that was going to come to get more people into our area to spend more money. So it was definitely two fold. Although I only ever really let everyone know that it was one fold, which was my gift to my area. 

Cliff Duvernois: Nice. I absolutely love that. I didn’t even think about the impact that podcasting could have on speaking, speaking engagements, but you’ve really opened my eyes to that.

Jenn Donovan, Small Business Made Simple Podcast: Yeah. Yeah. Look, it does again, because you’re putting your voice out there. You’re putting your knowledge out there. And also, as, you know, as we did, before we press record, you get to know these person people before and after, the interviews. And sometimes that’s where some of the great gold comes from in relationship building comes from.

 Which is super interesting. And one of the privileges from being a podcaster or is that you get that time with that person. And, and sometimes I’ve been to be people that, to spend an hour with them probably would have cost me five, $6,000, a thousand dollars. Whereas I get to talk to them for a whole hour for free, because I’ve invited them to come on as a podcast guest, or they’ve asked to come on my podcast, which is even better when people start asking, if they can come on your podcast. 

Cliff Duvernois: I love it. One of the things that I’ve advocated from for as long as I can remember him, then my world of podcasting is podcasting is the ultimate relationship building tool. Yeah. Between yeah. Between the guests that you can have on there, but also between your listener. I mean, out of all the content that you can produce and put out there, I don’t know of any other platform, YouTube would probably be close, but I don’t know any other platform out there where a 20 minute piece of content or a 30 minute piece of content is something that your customer will listen to you while they’re driving on the road while they’re out for their morning walk or something else like that.

So yeah. Love it. That you pointed that out. What has been one of the biggest successes that you’ve had with podcast?

Jenn Donovan, Small Business Made Simple Podcast: Probably, extends into speaking again. So the speaking opportunities that have come from people that listened to my podcast, who then recommend me for speaking opportunities, or people who listened to my podcast?

and have speaking opportunities themselves, like they might have their own little communities or something like that.

That’s probably one of my biggest successes. I did have a very vain, lofty goal in 2021 to reach a hundred thousand downloads. I didn’t hit that. I hit 91,000 and that. thank you. That may not sound a lot to some people who are listening to your podcast. But when I put that into perspective of who I am and the energy that I put into my podcast to think that, that I have got to speak in that many ears or two, I don’t know, it could be a thousand people, or it could be 10,000 people.

That’s one of the problems with podcasting is you don’t Exactly. know who is listening to your podcast. I find that a little bit trippy a little bit unbelievable to think that, again, I guess imposter syndrome enters the head. It’s a sight. Wow. Little old me that, having that sort of influence on people.

So, um, Yeah.

definitely. Being that influence in a podcasting way is just a great delight from being a podcaster. And really, again, someone said to me about download numbers, not to get too hung up on them. So I don’t get too hung up on them. I, although I did have that very vain goal, they’re if you have 50 people listen to your podcasts and imagine talking to a room full of 50 people every week, would that excite you?

And I’m like, oh my gosh, absolutely. To think that you could stand in front of 50 people and, give your thoughts, opinions, your tips, or your tricks to them every single week is just unbelievable. Whether you have 10 listeners or a hundred listeners, imagine them as real people.

And I think you’ll feel a lot more proud about yourself. 

Cliff Duvernois: and I’m glad you brought up that comment about really not paying attention too much attention to the download numbers, because one of the things that you hit on, when you said you could speak to a room of 50 people, you don’t know who’s in that crowd of 50 people. There could be some CEO of some big company that has absolutely loving your message and thinking to himself, you know what?

We need to work with this person, right? Which could turn into a lucrative contract or somebody from TEDx could tap you and be like, Hey, I was listening to this podcast episode. I would love to put you on a national stage. In front of thousands of people and your video could be viewed by millions of people that are out there.

So I think you got to keep in mind that, if you’re only getting 50 downloads. Okay. But you don’t know who that 50 is, 

Jenn Donovan, Small Business Made Simple Podcast: Um, 

Cliff Duvernois: you 

Jenn Donovan, Small Business Made Simple Podcast: and they could be the 50 people that you need the most. It’s no different to looking at Instagram followers. You know?

don’t get hung up on the numbers. It’s better to have a hundred people who engage with you every time you post then 3000 people where 10 people only ever engaged with you. Numbers don’t necessarily matter.

It’s definitely the quality, as you’ve said. And again, you just don’t know who’s in that particular audience that you, that are listening to you, and it’s always such a thrill when someone does reach out to you or screenshots that they’re listening to your podcast or send you a DM and you get to know them.

I have people that sort of say to me, it might send me a DM and they’re like, oh my God, you responded. And I’m like, absolutely. I’m so excited that you took the time to do that because otherwise the stats, that’s the one thing that I wish that podcasting could do a little bit better.

And that is to give us better stats, but maybe the mystery is all part of the success as well. 

Cliff Duvernois: yeah. Who knows? Probably some startup somewhere is working on that exact question right now, as far as providing those high-level analytics. So, okay. There’s entrepreneurs who have a podcast who are listening to this podcast and they’re struggling, right? They, they maybe have gotten their 10 episodes, 15 episodes, and they’re just struggling.

What would be one key piece of advice that you’d want to give them?

Jenn Donovan, Small Business Made Simple Podcast: To don’t give up, I guess, uh, most certainly I think if you feel that you have something to tell someone and you can add value to somebody’s life, I think you have a responsibility to do that and to help that person, whether that’s one person or a hundred people. I think let go of the perfectionism.

We talked about that a little bit earlier. As far as getting rid of ums and AHS and likes and that sort of thing, I have to say that I script my podcast. So I actually write my podcasts before I record them. I, because that’s the way I learn. By having something that’s already, I’ve already got my thoughts out on a piece of paper of where I want.

to take the podcast.

So that really helps me as a podcaster. I don’t necessarily read. But I have it all mapped out and in front of me. And plus then it becomes my show notes, which then are repurposed into a blog. So it actually becomes part of my content marketing as well. Making sure that if you perhaps aren’t, getting a little bit confused on your podcasts or they’re not going the way you want them script them first, write them out.

And that is okay to do that. Think about how you can repurpose your podcast if it’s maybe not doing what you want it to do, are you marketing enough? Which of course would be the question. But also, how can you repurpose that podcast, and looking at, at it from different avenues so that it’s not a standalone piece of content, but it’s something that can be repurposed to help build your businesses as well.

Cliff Duvernois: and I’m glad that you bring that up. That’s something that, I work with my clients on is if you know, from my standpoint, cause I just love podcasting so much. I always tell them to think of podcasting kind of like the tip of the spear, right? If you create a good podcast episode, doesn’t have to be great.

But if you create a good podcast episode, it’s amazing the number of pieces of content that you can get from that one podcast episode. You could probably get 30 pieces of content with quote cards, audio grams, creating short videos, breaking it down into topics that you can use for Instagram Reels or, or Tik Toks all from that one episode.

Jenn Donovan, Small Business Made Simple Podcast: Yes, there is certainly an enormous lease. And if you just went to Google and you type that in, how can I repurpose my podcast? She’d probably get a lot of answers that you could look at doing as well. But I think the stats for podcasting, I think the average podcast episodes are eight. I think the average, over all the people that start podcasts, the average episode number is eight.

So if you’ve got more than eight, then you’re above average already. So just keep going with it. There are a lot of people who start podcasts and don’t go ahead with it, which is probably for a multitude of reasons. And that’s totally fine. But again, if you’ve got value to add to someone, you kind of have a responsibility to add that value to their life and help. 

Cliff Duvernois: nice. Absolutely love it. So, Jen, if somebody is listening to this podcast episode, and man, they just want to suck up all your podcasts that you have out there, follow you on social, find your website, where what’s the best way for them to.

Jenn Donovan, Small Business Made Simple Podcast: Yeah. So my podcast obviously is small business made simple. You can find it on all the big podcast apps. My website is social media and And I have to.

tell you that my business is named social media and marketing Australia, because that was free when I was doing my business. And I typed doing for a domain name and social media, that I knew was free.

I was just like, well, that’s ridiculous. How can that be free? So that’s how I named my business. So I have a very big ready fire aim, attitude to business. Like, let’s just get this done. So you can find all my episodes and a lot of content over there. Otherwise I do like to hang out on Instagram. So at Jenn Donovan underscore. 

Cliff Duvernois: And for our audience, we will have all of those links down in the show notes down below Jen. It’s been, it’s been awesome having you on the podcast today.

Jenn Donovan, Small Business Made Simple Podcast: Oh, it’s been such a great conversation. I don’t get to talk about podcasting enough. I get to talk on a podcast, but not about book costing. So I’ve so enjoyed it. Thank you.