“My mindset is clear. Podcasting is the ultimate relationship building tool. I’m not obsessed about the downloads because that’s nothing more than a by-product.”

Cliff Duvernois, Host of the Entrepreneurs on Podcasting

Most everyone knows that 60-80% of podcasts are in podfade after only 8 episodes. While the excuses abound, what is the real reason? That is something that Cliff Duvernois, host of the Entrepreneurs on Podcasting Show, tackles today and offers a different reason why podcasts slip into podfade.

As with most things in life, it’s usually what is going on in our minds and in our belief systems that impacts how well we do in life and how successful our businesses can truly become.

Topics we covered:

  • What exactly is podfade?
  • The Untold reason that business podcasts go into podfade
  • Why expensive equipment is unnecessary and overrated
  • Why the relationships podcasting brings is more important that the number of downloads
  • How changing my Mindset about podcasts brought me immeasurable success

This episode is brought to you by “Start My Business Podcast Challenge“. I’ve been using podcasting as a powerful business growing tool for years. Nothing is more powerful than podcasting for help businesses grow. If you’re tired of playing roulette with your ad dollars and frustrated with algorithms constantly changing on social media platforms, the only thing that has changed about podcasting is the popularity of the platform.

If you’re a business owner and you want to grow your business but you’re not sure where to start, then join the FREE 5-Day Start My Business Podcast Challenge. Within 5 days, you’ll go from no podcast to having a full realized podcast with built in strategies to help use this tool for your business.

Select Links from the Episode:

Show Notes:

  • What is pod fade?(0:54)
  • The reason behind pod fade that nobody talks about (01:30)
  • Why society is littered with false advertising (02:35)
  • What Preston Pugmire claims is more important than strategy (03:28) 
  • What exactly is “Mindset”? (04:15)
  • How did I discover podcasting? (05:11)
  • Why I turned to YouTube to learn the ropes of podcasting (06:15)
  • How I found the middle ground of the overwhelming requirements these experts set (07:15)
  • Why podfade got the better of me (08:00)
  • The moment that changed everything (09:42)
  • Why podcasting isn’t the primary product of my business (10:20)
  • Why it’s okay to not do what these podcast gurus tell you to do/ Why the number of downloads don’t dictate your success (11:10)
  • Why 60-80% of podcasts go into pod fade (11:40)
  • The only question you need to ask yourself to get out of pod fade (11:50)
  • Why expensive equipment are overrated (12:26)
  • Why letting go of perfection actually brought me more success (13:20)
  • What you have to endure when first starting a podcast (13:45)
  • Why the relationships podcasting brings trumps your downloads (14:18)
  • The results of having relationships in terms of numbers (14:59)


Cliff Duvernois: Hello everyone. And welcome to this episode of Entrepreneurs on Podcasting. From time to time, I’m going to be sitting down behind the microphone and sharing some of my thoughts with you about podcasting and for business. And I thought this would be a really good opportunity for me to sit down and talk to you really about the real reason why I feel that pod fade is happening.

Now, for those of you that don’t know pod fade is where a podcast will start. Some entrepreneur will start a podcast. They’ll get out, anywhere between, eight or 10 episodes. And for whatever reason or another, they stop producing episodes when you stop producing episodes for your podcast. And I you’ve probably seen them before.

If you’ve been to apple podcasts, you will notice that they haven’t produced an episode in six months or over a year when that happens. The term that people are using is probably. Fade now there’s you can go out there and you can Google it and you can say, Hey, what are the reasons for pod fade? Right?

Let’s learn from these mistakes. And believe me, I’ve spent a lot of time out there looking at all these different articles and I will share with you this. I think the big reason for pod fade is the one. Nobody is talking about, we’re looking for some kind of a systemic problem, so to speak, like we can point our point, our finger at something and be like, Ooh, there’s the mistake that people are making.

And somehow this is going to magically cure podfade. But I really think the reason for podfade is actually much bigger than just saying, oh, well it takes up too much time or that, people just got tired of it or they didn’t like it. I think the reason for it as much. Now, if we think about it the way that we have become as a society and with the advent of the internet and with marketing, you literally can’t spend five minutes online without bumping into some kind of an article that says.

Here’s the top nine ways to be able to grow your audience or the 15 ways to get to the top of apple podcast. Everybody out there is promising some kind of a quick solution or step-by-step program for you to be able to have this huge success with your podcast. Just the other day, I had an email from a podcast guru show up in my inbox that said, Hey, I got 10,000 downloads of my latest podcast episode.

And so can you, here are the steps. Now the information, the internet is literally littered with this kind of information. There are strategies everywhere that people can use and all kinds of tactics as well. So if there are so many sure-fire strategies, if there are so many great tactics that can be used, why is it that so many podcasts are going into pod fade?

Preston Pugmire, the host of the crazy popular Next Level Life podcast. He gave this really cool TEDx talk and he had this to say,

Preston Pugmire: If information was all that was necessary, we would all be millionaires with six pack. Right now. So have you ever had all the information or all the strategy that you needed and then not accomplish your goal?

How come it’s because mindset is more important than strategy. 

Cliff Duvernois: Now I want you to think about that for just a second. Mindset trumps strategy. Now before I continue, I want to lay down a definition of mindset because a lot of people are talking about mindset, but I want to make sure that you and I are speaking the same language. So that way we can both understand exactly what it is that we are dealing with here.

Now, Dr. Alia Crum in her paper, neurobiology of the placebo effect writes, “Mindsets are lenses or frames of mind that orient individuals to a particular set of associations. And expectations.” 

Now, Scott burrows, he’s a motivational speaker. Best-selling author. He is a member of the million dollar round table.

Had this to say about mindset.

Scott Burrows: But what is mindset? It’s your own philosophy of life is how you see things through your own life experiences. Most importantly, it’s how you respond to those experiences. It’s how you respond to a new challenge.

Cliff Duvernois: Mindset is not only the lens through which we see the world, but also how we respond to it. So how does mindset play into podcast? 

Well, let me share with you briefly about my journey into podcasting. And I know I talked about this in episode one, but I want to do a little bit more of a deeper dive, so to speak.

I was looking for some way to differentiate my business when I was still living in Southern California and my business coach at the time said to me, I want you to start a podcast. And I said, okay, but I had no clue how to start a podcast. What’s the best advice, what are best practices? And these are normal questions that people would ask.

So I did what anybody would do is I turned to YouTube and I found successful podcasters who had created these videos about how to start a podcast. No, of course. Now the first thing I noticed when I look at these videos is, and this is back in 2018. At this point in time, a lot of these videos were already two and three years old.

So they were created about 2014, 2015, but I didn’t care. I was there to learn how to do it. So I’m going to listen to. And besides these podcasters, they’ve got, millions of downloads. They’ve built their business on podcasting. So here we go. We’ll a lot of the time when I’m listening to these podcasts experts talk, they’ll say things like, oh, well you need to have this type of equipment.

You got to have this microphone. You got to have a mixer board. You gotta have a preamp. You gotta have this and that dah dah dah. Well, by the time I got done listing out all of the items that they recommended, it was close to 4,500. I didn’t have $4,500 to spend on equipment. So then they come back and they say, oh, you know what?

You know, use a garage band. Or if you’re on a PC, you can use a, you can use a whatever the software is for PC. The name escapes my mind, but you have to use all of the software to be able to use it. Now I’m not a recording engineer. I am not an audio engineer. I have no idea how to use this software.

But, you know what? I had to figure it out because I wanted to get a podcast because the podcasts are all telling me that if I don’t have good sounding audio, nobody’s going to listen to my podcast. It has to sound good. And on top of that, they’re sitting there saying you should pick people that you really admire.

And do what they’re doing. So I’m thinking if I’m going to do an interview style podcast, I need to be taking a look at Larry King or Oprah Winfrey. And how do these people conduct interviews and what did their sound like? And I all sudden I had this huge image in my mind of what I needed to be the target I had to hit.

And it was incredibly, incredibly high. But I did as much as the podcast gurus recommended. I tried to anyways, now I will admit I didn’t, I did not spend $4,500 on equipment because it was, if it was a choice between paying bills and buying all this equipment, I chose to pay my bills. Instead I used my a hundred dollars USB Blue Yeti, I think had been a couple of years old.

And as a matter of fact, I’m recording this on that same microphone. But I’ll tell you another thing that happened too. When I finally started getting in it and really started recording episodes and doing all my research, every episode was taking me between 10 and 12 hours to do. That was an entire day of my week eaten up for one 30 minute episode.

It was crazy and it was painful and I stuck it out for as long as I could. I made it to episode 18. Which is almost four months over five months before what happened, pod fade. Now I decided to go into pod fade simply because of the fact that I needed to get leads for my business. I needed to close deals.

I needed to take care of my customers. I just didn’t have all this time. This. But as I mentioned before, I actually did get a high ticket client for my podcast, but I just couldn’t keep doing it because I really didn’t understand in the first place what it was that I had done with my podcast to get him as a client.

But I still kept playing around with podcasting. Whenever I would shift my business or pivot or try to do something else, I always tried to bring podcasting into it because I felt that it could be an effective tool and time and time again, my podcast was slipping the pod fade because I just didn’t have the bandwidth to throw.

Finally, I’m talking to somebody one day and they’re saying, oh, yo, Clifford, are you into now? And what’s going on? And dah, dah, dah. I told them about my love of podcasting, right. How I missed it, how I wanted to do it. And they commented to me and they said, oh, so you’re a podcaster. And I remember I froze and I looked at him and I said, actually, no, I’m an entrepreneur with a podcast.

That is when my mindset shifted because you see, when I went back at the very beginning, when I did not know how to do a podcast and I went and I went and I listened to these podcasts, these people that have, millions of followers and they’re, they’re making all this money from their podcast episodes.

They know how to create a podcast for podcasters, their mindset. Became my mindset. I adopted it and I said, you know what? I have to become a podcaster and I have to be just as good as them. And so I took it and I ran with it, but I forgot the fact that I’m an entrepreneur. First podcasting is something that I use for my marketing is something that I use to help grow my business.

It is not the primary product of my business. But as a podcaster, I felt that the success on my podcast was tied to my downloads. Cause this is what everybody always talks about. How you can get 10,000 downloads. How do you get a million downloads? You know what my goals are for getting X amount of downloads.

Now, as an entrepreneur, I’ve always felt in my heart of hearts, the most important thing, the reason why I stopped pod fade or stopped my podcasts in the first place and let it go in the pod fade was because of the relationship. Are more important to me, the relationships that I build with partners with clients, those are the most important things.

My business doesn’t depend on the number of downloads. It depends on the relationships. Once I made that shift, I gave myself permission to abandon the old process. The process that these, the podcast gurus that these, really successful podcasters out there have been teaching for years. I go on to YouTube today and I see these same videos that are out there.

They’re well, over 10 years old, people are still watching them. People are still listening to their advice. People are still trying to start their podcast. And this explains why 60 to 80% of podcasts out there going to pod fade.

So the question I asked myself was simply. If I had to create a podcast today, how would I do it? Once I did that, once I allowed myself to completely disregard everything that I had learned, it was like I was starting over from scratch. And that was awesome because then what happened is pieces started falling into place.

Now as I’m doing this and I’m building up my podcast and now I’m beginning to challenge these perceptions, these whole things about, oh, well you got to have this great sounding podcast and all these other things. Dah, dah, dah. Well, you know what I had started stopped podcasts. I’ve had many people listen to my podcast episodes over the years.

Do you know what nobody wants, has ever said to me? Oh, you record your podcast on a blue. Oh, well then I can’t listen to your podcast. I only listen to podcasts that use the Shure SM seven B. And I’m not even really sure what that is. No one has ever said to me, you don’t use a mixer. Oh, well, I can’t listen to your podcast then.

Do you know what people do say to me? I loved your last episode. I loved that episode where you’re talking about tonight. Now the reason why pop people stopped listening to my podcast was not because of the microphone. It wasn’t because of the mixer people stop listening to my podcast because I went into pod fate because I stopped producing episodes because I believed I had to hit this impossibly high standard when it came to my podcast.

Because I had this belief that my podcast had to be perfect. I had to get all this awesome audio quality and all this other stuff. And then my mindset would come along and push the podcast into pod fade. I want to state this for the record. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with being a podcaster.

Heard of podcasts. Podcasting is something that you want to do and have it be the primary revenue driver for your business. Go for it. Mazeltov every expert on the planet out there will tell you the same thing. Be prepared for a 14 to 16 month journey before it starts to bear fruit. And then at this point here, your download numbers become the metric by which you measure the success of your podcast.

And for many, Those numbers don’t come right away because they approach their podcast like a podcast stor. And once they realize that the podcast has just taken up too much time, they’ve got bills to pay. They’ve probably got an angry spouse upset because they spent $4,500 on equipment. So now their podcast slips in the pod fade because they don’t have time.

But as an entrepreneur who values relationships, who focuses on building relationships, Well, I will let this podcast speak for itself. Because the time that I, I initialize the concept of this particular podcast until I released episode one, that span was 30 days. And within that first 30 days, I had built my network by 40 additional people.

These are really super cool. These are the people who I invited to come on to this podcast and be a guest and share their wisdom. And when I’m talking about adding people to my network, I’m not talking about how I sent them a LinkedIn request. I’m talking about how I could send any one of these people, an email right now, and they will respond.

That’s what I’m talking about. As far as network goes now, from those relationships, I’ve gotten 18 invitations to be on other podcasts and through introductions, I’ve scored two clients. All of this happened without a single episode being published, no downloads, but now that this podcast is published, now that it’s out there, I really do hope that if there’s an entrepreneur out there, either wanting to start a podcast or maybe is even struggling with their podcast

that they’ll download these episodes. Listen to them. I hope that the strategies and advice that my speakers are giving out well, we’ll help them to see that podcasting can be an effective tool in their marketing tool kit. And if that entrepreneur needs help, I hope they reach out because you know what?

I would love to help anybody out there. Who’s trying to use podcasting as a tool, but as far as the downloads go, if I get 10 or 10,000, I’m happy either way, because I fallen in love with the process. Because my mindset is clear that podcasting is the ultimate relationship building tool. I’m not obsessed about the numbers because the numbers is nothing more than a by-product.

It is not the metric that I use for success. So with that being said, my mindset is finally right. My mindset is finally screwed on. Correct. As far as my strategy goes for podcasting, it is now aligned with my beliefs as an entrepreneur. I value relationships and that’s what podcasting has afforded me to do to be able to build relationships at scale.

And I am seeing the results, not as a podcaster, but as an entrepreneur with a podcast. Thank you so much for listening and I’ll catch you guys in the next episode.